[Team] Red Bull: Unbullievable

[bjohnsonsmith]

That's an excellent article and I thought it was this paragraph that stood out:

''In the end I reached few conclusions, but I felt the dossier was a vicious attempt to discredit and embarrass Horner because the official process had not delivered the result that someone wanted. And for me it was clear that someone’s goal was to oust Horner.''

[Richard C]

Another comments on Joe's article. When he is talking about the screenshots and timing of the screenshots he says...

The content showed that some of these screenshots were quite early on. Why would anyone want to have a record of this stuff early on in the exchanges, when there was no suggestion that it was anything more than flirting? That was odd and worrying.

I think what he is implying (?) is that why would anyone start taking screenshots as evidence? That the complainant was not acting in good faith, maybe even trying to trap him?

I have been privy to work situations in which there is a power differential and the superior is saying/doing inappropriate things or is showing a pattern of that behavior. The person in question was hesitant to go forward with a complaint and came to me for advice. My advice to them at that time was... document this now even if you are unsure what you want to do (take to HR or not). If it stops, great, if not, you can show what was happening if you do take it to HR. While some may be quick to lodge complaints, I suspect most just try to navigate it on their own. And sometimes it does resolve itself.

And to be clear, my reading of those messages, the complainant should have put on the brakes earlier. And also... regardless of how eager (or not) the complainant might have been, the onus would have still been on CH to not pursue or reciprocate (at least here in the US). The only exception would be if RBR, RBPT, or RB (whichever corp entity sets the policies for those involved) allowed manager/subordinate relationships. CH was acting badly (putting himself at great risk) and the complainant was also acting badly (potentially also putting themself at risk for violating policy).

Richard

[GT6]

if Jos takes over the team, you can bet every other team will breath easy and start realisticly dreaming of winning something

[Plantagenet]

It’s a good article, thanks for sharing.
However, as others have pointed out, quite how CH has remained in position is baffling. He was cleared of ‘inappropriate and controlling behaviour’, which may indeed be true. But, it clearly looks like there was some form of consensual relationship, occurring over a matter of months. In my company and others Ive worked for, this would be a disciplinary issue. For senior executives, it is curtains - see Steve Easterbrook at MacDonald’s. So to escape without even a suspension or any apparent disclipinary is simply bonkers.

All this as F1 pivots to a younger female audience. I can’t see it going away any time soon as other stakeholders will not want to be soiled (Liberty, FIA, Ford, other sponsors).

[ChrisA]

According to the national press, both Horner and Newry were up for possible knighthoods, but not now.

[TWRv12]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

But, it clearly looks like there was some form of consensual relationship, occurring over a matter of months. In my company and others Ive worked for, this would be a disciplinary issue. For senior executives, it is curtains - see Steve Easterbrook at MacDonald’s. So to escape without even a suspension or any apparent disclipinary is simply bonkers.

Mark Hurd at HP is another

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hurd


Barnaby Joyce too

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnaby_Joyce




Max is also supposed to have an escape clause if Marko is shafted
https://www.limburger.nl/cnt/dmf20240304_96354520

[Skam85]

If after all this, Seb Vettel ends up in Marko's place then Red Bull will be a better place.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

curious how long the jabbing has really been going on for?

Only CH and the lady in question would know this

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

It’s a good article, thanks for sharing.
However, as others have pointed out, quite how CH has remained in position is baffling. He was cleared of ‘inappropriate and controlling behaviour’, which may indeed be true. But, it clearly looks like there was some form of consensual relationship, occurring over a matter of months. In my company and others Ive worked for, this would be a disciplinary issue. For senior executives, it is curtains - see Steve Easterbrook at MacDonald’s. So to escape without even a suspension or any apparent disclipinary is simply bonkers.

All this as F1 pivots to a younger female audience. I can’t see it going away any time soon as other stakeholders will not want to be soiled (Liberty, FIA, Ford, other sponsors).

Its only baffling if you believe all the garbage that appeared from third party sources and Dutch newspapers, Dutch team managers, and a Dutch parent.

Until we have clarity, real clarity, on the sources of things supposed to have been distributed by CH, but denied, we are simply PITW because we don't have enough knowledge or surety to make a judgement.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Skam85

If after all this, Seb Vettel ends up in Marko's place then Red Bull will be a better place.

People continually underestimate Dr Marko. He's very, very good at what he does. When he does eventually go, I'd say Berger or Verstappen senior (as talent scout) are the most likely to come in.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by peebee2

People continually underestimate Dr Marko. He's very, very good at what he does. When he does eventually go, I'd say Berger or Verstappen senior (as talent scout) are the most likely to come in.

Oh yeah he's very good. His success speaks for itself.

He's also really old and I think Vettel's incredible F1 brain and persona is the perfect fit for the long term.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Oh yeah he's very good. His success speaks for itself.

He's also really old and I think Vettel's incredible F1 brain and persona is the perfect fit for the long term.

I'd be surprised. Marko is harder than nails.

[Skam85]

Maybe he can take over Mr Sulayem as the head of FIA after Mohammed's role is put in the Bin

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Only CH and the lady in question would know this

Best laugh I have had today!

[billy bleach]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68491352

Bet Borner feels a bit silly now - slagging Wolfe on Drive to survive “change your ***ing car”. …..

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68491352

Bet Borner feels a bit silly now - slagging Wolfe on Drive to survive “change your ***ing car”. …..

Probably not - the cars have been raised since then and the discussions in the link are not about changing the ride height of the current cars, but about the 2026 ruleset and maybe doing so then.

The discussion in that Team Principal's meeting was about porpoising, which is different from ride height that is being discussed by the drivers in the link above.

Personally, I couldn't have agreed with Horner more in his response to the threat that Toto made to all the other teams "I'm going to come after you" when the solution was clearly to "change your ****ing car" as the reduction in porpoising for Mercedes showed with firstly the revised minimum ride height since then and secondly Mercedes actually changing the car to deal with the porpoising problem it had when running low (so much that the plank was worn too much at Austin last year).

Clear from the video of that meeting that the other TPs were with Horner, maybe not quite so outspoken.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Probably not - the cars have been raised since then and the discussions in the link are not about changing the ride height of the current cars, but about the 2026 ruleset and maybe doing so then.

The discussion in that Team Principal's meeting was about porpoising, which is different from ride height that is being discussed by the drivers in the link above.

Personally, I couldn't have agreed with Horner more in his response to the threat that Toto made to all the other teams "I'm going to come after you" when the solution was clearly to "change your ****ing car" as the reduction in porpoising for Mercedes showed with firstly the revised minimum ride height since then and secondly Mercedes actually changing the car to deal with the porpoising problem it had when running low (so much that the plank was worn too much at Austin last year).

Clear from the video of that meeting that the other TPs were with Horner, maybe not quite so outspoken.

I agree regarding tying this to prior Wolff vs. Horner arguments is tenuous. But during the period in which porpoising was a problem, increasing the ride height was one of the solutions. And the ride height was increased for 2023 to help address porpoising issues. I think the cynical view going into 2023 season was that Mercedes pushed for that change as (1) they knew they needed to rework their solution that didn't work in 2022 and (2) it was thought it might "break" whatever Red Bull was doing. But the problem was that in 2023 Red Bull marched on with good performance even at the higher ride height.

In 2022 with teams such as Mercedes having to both run low and having serious porpoising problems the topic of driver safety and health was clearly a topic. Including the temporary regulations to monitor porpoising to avert driver health issues. It seems like teams "mostly" got a handle on it. Or at least at least it was not quite as violent as it had been at the start for teams like Mercedes. So from that perspective those 2022 discussions are not different than what the drivers are bringing up now.

Fast forward to today drivers are still calling out that the cars still run quite low. The porpoising is less of an issue, but getting pounded as they bottom out still is a problem. And with the cars at full fuel load that seems to be frequently.

As to the doing this as part of 2026 vs. today. I personally think that is just those bringing this topic up are being realistic in that there is zero chance that this type of change is happening in the current technical specification that runs through 2025. While we are just starting 2024 season, teams are thinking (or have started) on 2025 cars. I can't find it, but I swore there was some existing regulation that limited development between 2024 and 2025. I might be confusing that with the ban put in place recently on doing any aero work on the 2026 cars until the 2025 season. It is anticipated that 2024 and 2025 cars may be very similar. So in short, there is not going to be ANY reworking of the technical regulations until 2026 short of some type of emergency that drives it. That 2026 is realistically the soonest something like a right height increase could be put in place.

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Fast forward to today drivers are still calling out that the cars still run quite low. The porpoising is less of an issue, but getting pounded as they bottom out still is a problem. And with the cars at full fuel load that seems to be frequently.

Yep - agree. The Toto threat and Horner response captured by DTS was about porpoising though, and the FIA measures put in place (including oscillating measurements) were about porpoising. Bottoming out and driver discomfort stemming from bottoming out is a similar but not the same issue. The Wolff/Horner exchange was also about implementing an immediate change, so also different from the current discussion being raised by drivers, who as you and I have said, are being more realistic.

[VIVA GT]

For various reasons I didn't watch very closely or enjoy the first Grand Prix this year, but one thing I do remember noticing from the onboard camera's during qualifying was that the bouncing appears to be back. You can't so much see it as hear it but I'm sure I noticed it on McLaren & Ferrari cars.

[Sodemo]

The irony is that raising the ride height would negate somewhat the purpose of the regs as the aero is less efficient when the floor is raised. I do wonder how much DF is provided by the floor VS the front and rear wings. The front and rear wings are still huge in terms of surface area so I would think they are still producing hundreds of Kg of downforce.

[Mike Harte]

The female complainant against Horner has been suspended by Red Bull.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68501426

[Lancsbreaker]

Just heard on BBC radio news that it is being reported that the Red Bull complainant has been suspended on full pay......


Curiouser and curiouser......


I agree Joe's article was pretty good, but also that if the complainant was in possession of all the evidence, wasn't it shown to the KC?

[Greem]

Max. Oh, Max.

[Richard C]

Max seems to be walking a fine line on this topic. Which is very interesting. Has there been any public support for Horner from notable RB team staff?

The suspension of the complainant is interesting. Articles saying it started Monday. Timing is interesting. The suspension is not around the time of the original statement from Red Bull about the complaint being dropped, but it is after the leak. Not a lot of information as to what is happening. Plenty of speculation. I have seen speculation that the complainant is pursuing legal action and this may be part of the Austrian vs. Thai RB ownership battles.

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Richard, not recent but Newey stated that if Horner goes, so then he will leave as well. I'm not aware of him saying anything else since.