MSNZ & TMC - 'Wheels start to come off'

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by sollitt

I'm not sure, Roger, that a spot on the Forbes Rich List has ever been a prerequisite for sports administrators or even that it necessarily guarantees suitability.
Whilst, Bennett aside, the Executive may have served terms ranging from 2 to 5 years, I consider their tenure to really have only begun with the handover of the chairmanship 2 years ago. Having a little insight into the prior management, I believe that the cans of worms that are being exposed here, and elsewhere, were perhaps largely out of reach prior.
Perhaps it could be argued that one or two are out of their depth but by & large I think that they are attempting to deal with the baggage they've inherited with some propriety and not deserving of our derision or insult.
Where they do act inappropriately I'd be the first person to encourage comment.

In agreeing with you one can also add that there have been some significant changes within the office structure in the recent past and as a result of this management and the executive now have far more insight as to what may or may not have been occuring.
I actually think that the current executive are on the right path now for I was very concerned about 5 years ago when it was very obvious to me that there were issues that needed to be faced up to. I also know that some of the current executive shared similar thoughts which was part of their reasoning to stand for election in the first place.

Still it's going to be a long journey for we have to consider all aspects of motorsport and not just the one sector called motor racing

[Racer Mike]

I see the wheels are in motion for the wind up of MPL.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/classified...did=8938953001

Suggest TV3 will be standing in line along with plenty of others.

[Evomike]

Originally Posted by Racer Mike

I see the wheels are in motion for the wind up of MPL.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/classified...did=8938953001

Suggest TV3 will be standing in line along with plenty of others.

There must be money in the MPL kitty then

[v8stfg]

I have to admit I have not read all 51 pages to date on this, I did read a lot at the start and have read about the last fifteen pages or so.

I am not a team owner, nor driver, I don't work for the MSNZ/TMC/MSP however do declare up front that I do run the V8 Supertourer Fan Group - the official fan website of the V8 Supertourers (just want everything to be above board).

I grew up with my dad racing around the speedway track, I used to remember the thrill i'd get watching the ol' Panorama Paints Car flying around, and still remember when Dad entered our old family car into a demolition derby and won it - felt sorry for our good ol' car at the end though.

That little story wasn't aimed to bore you it was there to show that since a young age I have always been into motorsport, and yes I know the speedway is different to circuit racing etc, but as the years in my life grew on I did a web design course, have done a diploma in journalism and currently doing a diploma in venue and event management as I want to work in the motorsport industry.

Which is why it is a shame to see where MNZ has effectively "turned their backs" on those who make up the car clubs. That there is no transparency, and to the point that there are over 50 pages of messages on this board alone by car club drivers not happy with where things are going.

Closing one company down TMC and launching Motorsport Productions to effectively do the same job isn't cutting it but the question I would really like to know from anyone and everyone is honestly can Motorsport New Zealand recover from this? Than they once again rebuild and become the dominant force?

Do you think the longer this saga goes on the stronger it actually makes the V8 SuperTourer Series?

Would those of you who have flat out said no to the V8ST's at the very beginning start questioning whether it could be worth to change your mind?

[socram]

Welcome! Many of us have grown up with diverse influences in motorsport, but all that does is broaden the mind.

What we have seen is one or two people over the years, stand up to be counted. Mike John with Targa is a classic example of one who had to battle MSNZ all the way to put on an event, and keep the event running.

Mark Petch is strong enough to stand up too, but challenging the hieracrchy is the only way forward and that applies just as much when things are going well as when the general perception is that some are standing in deep yoghurt coloured brown.

You either have a single dictator and abide by their rules, hoping that they have your best interests at heart (as well as their own); or you have some sort of quasi democratic organisation that isn't really democratic at all; or you have a truly democratic organisation, which may well be worse than the other two options, as people can never agree anyway, so anything up to 49% could be dissatisfied.

Kiwis are well known for allowing management to run over them, but at long last, there are signs that they are wanting more of a say. So again, welcome aboard, as people from your generation are the future of the sport, not those of us clutching our Gold Cards.

[Club racer]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

In agreeing with you one can also add that there have been some significant changes within the office structure in the recent past and as a result of this management and the executive now have far more insight as to what may or may not have been occuring.
I actually think that the current executive are on the right path now for I was very concerned about 5 years ago when it was very obvious to me that there were issues that needed to be faced up to. I also know that some of the current executive shared similar thoughts which was part of their reasoning to stand for election in the first place.

Still it's going to be a long journey for we have to consider all aspects of motorsport and not just the one sector called motor racing

I'd argue that there is a degree of MSNZ mismanagement in more than one aspect, or a history of it. Drag racing? Drifting? oh and wasn't it rallying a few years ago? They do seem to be repeat offenders whoever is in the hot seats. Perhaps some competition for them would be a good thing?

[v8stfg]

Thanks for the welcome,

I guess the other thing to look at is sometimes ego's get in the way. We all know that one person we know, or who we have worked with, that has that ego trip where they can't admit they are wrong and that is where I believe Motorsport in New Zealand is currently at the moment.

Either Mark Petch is wrong in going full out attack and launching the V8 SuperTourers, or those at the helm of Motorsport New Zealand are in the wrong getting into a side of things they had no real place being however don't want to admit they are wrong.

To me the fight between V8ST and NZV8/MNZ can only be a positive thing - I know it doesn't look like it at the moment but we are either going to have two fantastic V8 championships in the country, or MNZ will eventually listen to all of this back lashing and attempt to resolve it by taking a major step backward and go back to just being the overall head of motorsport in the country.

I know that it seems obvious where I have thrown my support, considering what I do, but doesn't mean I am not hopeful of a somewhat peaceful solution.

I went where I did as instead of having a carrot dangled infront of me I had a nice hot meat pie lol - it was like the glitz and the glamour of a new championship 20 new cars (compared to 2) the names they had including Murph and co which made me go the way I did but hopefully for motorsport's sake something is sorted out in the not to distant future.

I feel sorry for those out there such as the Honda Cup, or the other smaller support categories where really all they want to do is travel to a track, get their car of the truck, race around for the weekend having fun in their competition, and then drive home when the races are over - these guys, just like us fans, are the ones that are kept in the middle of things like we are rag dolls being yanked one-way and the other and for those reasons I do hope something is sorted out sooner rather than later.

[E36ST]

Originally Posted by v8stfg

Closing one company down TMC and launching Motorsport Productions to effectively do the same job isn't cutting it but the question I would really like to know from anyone and everyone is honestly can Motorsport New Zealand recover from this?

Just to clarify, MSNZ didn't close down one company (TMC) and start another one (MPL). It was simply a re-naming exercise.

So the one that has just been placed in liquidation is MPL (formerly TMC) i.e. the same legal entity.

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by E36ST

Just to clarify, MSNZ didn't close down one company (TMC) and start another one (MPL). It was simply a re-naming exercise.

So the one that has just been placed in liquidation is MPL (formerly TMC) i.e. the same legal entity.

Makes you wonder who they thought they were fooling when they changed the name from TMC to MPL?

[Mr Revhead]

A restructure and renaming is hardly uncommon

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

A restructure and renaming is hardly uncommon

Particularly with builders wanting to avoid liability for past mistakes...

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

A restructure and renaming is hardly uncommon

The point I was trying to make was that although the management at TMC rebranded the entity it was still the same old management running things to the same old template and the result was that it fell over and is now in liquidation.
If it had really been a new management team running to a new template then the rebranding may have been more than just a name change and the outcome could have been different.

[Club racer]

Originally Posted by v8stfg

Thanks for the welcome,

I guess the other thing to look at is sometimes ego's get in the way. We all know that one person we know, or who we have worked with, that has that ego trip where they can't admit they are wrong and that is where I believe Motorsport in New Zealand is currently at the moment.

Either Mark Petch is wrong in going full out attack and launching the V8 SuperTourers, or those at the helm of Motorsport New Zealand are in the wrong getting into a side of things they had no real place being however don't want to admit they are wrong.

To me the fight between V8ST and NZV8/MNZ can only be a positive thing - I know it doesn't look like it at the moment but we are either going to have two fantastic V8 championships in the country, or MNZ will eventually listen to all of this back lashing and attempt to resolve it by taking a major step backward and go back to just being the overall head of motorsport in the country.

I know that it seems obvious where I have thrown my support, considering what I do, but doesn't mean I am not hopeful of a somewhat peaceful solution.

I went where I did as instead of having a carrot dangled infront of me I had a nice hot meat pie lol - it was like the glitz and the glamour of a new championship 20 new cars (compared to 2) the names they had including Murph and co which made me go the way I did but hopefully for motorsport's sake something is sorted out in the not to distant future.

I feel sorry for those out there such as the Honda Cup, or the other smaller support categories where really all they want to do is travel to a track, get their car of the truck, race around for the weekend having fun in their competition, and then drive home when the races are over - these guys, just like us fans, are the ones that are kept in the middle of things like we are rag dolls being yanked one-way and the other and for those reasons I do hope something is sorted out sooner rather than later.

Not the Honda Cup I would be feeling sorry for V8STFG - those guys have sorted themselves out in no time at all. Similarly BMW, and all of those other independent classes we have talked about seem in rude health compared to the 'official' ones. Suzuki have seen the light, as have CMC, Utes and a few others. As I understand it from a lady who I think races both in Honda Cup and at ACC jappy stuff events, the Honda Cup asked if it could run in the IRC long before V8ST came along and was given a firm 'no' by David Dovey.They went elsewhere and got support from V8ST, ACC and HRC to run their series. I KNOW the same story exists with a few other classes but they all say it was the best thing that happened to them!

But I don't disagree with your view that it all needs to be sorted quickly.

[Club racer]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead
A restructure and renaming is hardly uncommon

Originally Posted by RogerH

The point I was trying to make was that although the management at TMC rebranded the entity it was still the same old management running things to the same old template and the result was that it fell over and is now in liquidation.
If it had really been a new management team running to a new template then the rebranding may have been more than just a name change and the outcome could have been different.

And just because it is not uncommon - it doesn't mean it is right.

[Racer Mike]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

A restructure and renaming is hardly uncommon

What a pathetic comment Rev. Sometimes all of us do wonder your identity and who we may think you are.

Do you really think re naming a company with exisiting and or new directors fixes the problem of owing 3-400k. Obviously Martin Fine thought that renaming the company would wash old faces and old debt and start fresh. Well that doesnt happen today and when you get liquidaters in they will track you down and I hope they bring these irresponsible people to justice.

[Goat Boy]

Speaking of that, has anyone heard what is happening with the court case and the revelations of funding? Seems very quiet...

[Mr Revhead]

My point was the rebranding itself is irrelevant. Other issues are exactly that, other issues. A lot of posters here are implying a rebranding is proof of wrong doings. That is untrue. There are also a lot of posters saying msnz and mpl are the same.
For the record I am not a devout supporter of msnz, mpl etc. I came to the conclusion years ago that tier 1 was dead. However i hate seeing bs, lies and confusion spread. I like facts. Those that post letters and official reports etc, I thank you. Those that dont but mouth off about what they "heard" not so much

[Club racer]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

My point was the rebranding itself is irrelevant. Other issues are exactly that, other issues. A lot of posters here are implying a rebranding is proof of wrong doings. That is untrue. There are also a lot of posters saying msnz and mpl are the same.
For the record I am not a devout supporter of msnz, mpl etc. I came to the conclusion years ago that tier 1 was dead. However i hate seeing bs, lies and confusion spread. I like facts. Those that post letters and official reports etc, I thank you. Those that dont but mouth off about what they "heard" not so much

One fact is that bankruptcy and then the sudden rising out of the ashes of the same people doing the same thing under a different name where they have magically passed the debt on to the creditors who they now want to deal with on an even better deal is ALL too common.

The problem with 'fact' in this case is that it is difficult to establish what is/was is not/was not fact. I'm not even sure MSNZ know. What will be a fact is that there will be a massive mess of paperwork and it is simply - for me anyway - too much to believe that there were no things 'brushed under the carpet' to deal with later or 'packaged up as numbers somewhere on an accountants spreadsheet.' We all know the way it works and its bloody naive to give them the benefit of the doubt - in my opinion doing that is PRECISELY why it's in the **** in the first place.

From the point of view of ethical business practice the whole thing absolutely stinks and until such time as THEY come out with legally verified FACTS then it is very, very fair as a paying stakeholder in this sorry mess to look at the smoke rising and say that somewhere there is/was a fire causing it.

Your argument is a bit like saying that there are screams coming from an alley way, someone is crying 'help, help' and until such time as they are dead or lying in a pool of blood and you are invited to take a look, it is not a fact that they have been attacked/hurt or killed. Simply ludicrous - would you not wnat to peer round the corner and see if you could help?

[flyingduck]

I was wondering if anyone could tell me if the funding of the court case was revealed last week.

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by flyingduck

I was wondering if anyone could tell me if the funding of the court case was revealed last week.

I haven't seen any documentation regarding this but I understand that VEEGA may have presented an affidavit to the Court denying that MSNZ funded the litigation.

I know there was a lawyer's letter issued that stated MSNZ had funded part of the legal costs but MSNZ have subsequently refuted the contents of this letter. I would also assume that if MSNZ have stated they didn't fund the litigation then that also means they didn't provide funds to another entity that then passed them to VEEGA. I suppose the only way we will know for sure is in the case proper.

However, I don't think the funding issue is the end of it. MSNZ should not be involved in the litigation in any manner - be that funding, encouragement, support or condoning. All of these actions have potential risk for MSNZ as a regulatory body. They could possibly be in conflict with MSNZ's Constitution, NZ Statues and the FIA position.

The question I have asked (that hasn't been answered) is the possible condoning of the litigation by MSNZ through it's appointed director (MSNZ's GM) to the VEEGA board. I understand the MSNZ director held his position from 26 October 2011 to 19 June 2012 during which time I understand the VEEGA litigation against the ST directors was initiated. Did MSNZ's director vote in support of this legal action or sign any board papers in relation to it? Or did he immediately withdraw when the matter was raised and resign his directorship?

[Mr Revhead]

Sharing a board member is a bit of a tenuous link to conflict of interest for MSNZ.
But that's a sideline to the real issue in that court case which is the legality of the ST factions actions. I do hope the sideline doesn't prevent the real issue being judged. I think that however is the intention of some. Talking about the case itself, not this forum.

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Sharing a board member is a bit of a tenuous link to conflict of interest for MSNZ.
.

The risk to MSNZ is potentially more than just being a board member - what if the MSNZ appointed director is recorded in the VEEGA board papers as specifically voting in favour of commencing or pursuing the litigation? I would think if this sort of thing happened then it could well be construed as MSNZ condoning or supporting the litigation.
No doubt the litigation issue did come up at VEEGA board meetings and the prudent thing to do would be for the MSNZ appointed director to excuse himself from any discussions, not vote on the matter and probably resign his directorship - I hope this did happen as it would then absolve MSNZ of any challenges regarding its actions.

[Mr Revhead]

Personally I think that's a bit of a leap.

[E36ST]

You seem to be one of the few who does!

[Mr Revhead]

Well we are yet to see the mass of clubs baying for msnz blood. A couple have written letters. What else? If all the clubs were so upset why are they working with msnz to put on a summer series? Maybe this forum is just a doom and gloom meeting place?