IMSA DPi Discussion

[Maelochs]

Sorry, wrong thread.

[Purist]

Well, there's this piece, for what it's worth.

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/13093...ass-at-le-mans

If it isn't too onerous to get the cars up to speed, I like the idea of the DPIs running in LMP1-P.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

They should, and the first calls to see if anybody wants to try should be to HPD, Coyote and Ginetta.



Doubt it. It's still built to 2016 rules.

That won't happen because the big 4 were chosen so that there would be a viable market for the P2 chassis.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Purist

Well, there's this piece, for what it's worth.

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/13093...ass-at-le-mans

If it isn't too onerous to get the cars up to speed, I like the idea of the DPIs running in LMP1-P.

Some recent talk about upcoming chassis changes to both P1 classes could make DPi possible in LMP1-L. Specifically, the safety cell regs are going to be effectively the same, making it easier to take a P2 chassis and build a P1-L car off of it.

[MagVanisher]

Looks like the IMSA are interested in LMP1-Privateer class in DP International class. Of course, my concern is whether ACO will work with their American counterparts to let the prototype teams race with WEC regulars in LMP1.

[joeb]

I saw via twitter that Bleekomolen told Dutch media that he plans to be back in P2 next year with Ben Keating in a Riley P2. I think that is the first I've heard of that. Didn't hear where they plan to run the rest of the season though.

[August]

Originally Posted by Purist

Well, there's this piece, for what it's worth.

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/13093...ass-at-le-mans

If it isn't too onerous to get the cars up to speed, I like the idea of the DPIs running in LMP1-P.

I think DPi is more like factory LMP2 than privateer LMP1. That's why I'm not so fond of the idea of running DPi's in LMP1-P.

OEM involvement and all-pro crews don't make turn LMP2 into LMP1. What IMSA has wanted for DPi is LMP2 with OEM involvement. A class with little technical competion but with BoP to keep costs down.

I've said this many time, not that my opinion really matters. DPi in LMP2 would be just fine. For ACO LMP2 is a pro-am class, no matter if an OEM is sponsoring your team, you must run a silver drivers.

LMP2 is like GTE-Am. GTE-Am isn't a factory program even though you're using OEM machinery. It's a pro-am class, like LMP2 is; also LMP2 could be a pro-am class even if it used OEM machinery.

But leave LMP1-P for privateers, don't make it a budget option for OEMs to race in LMP1.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

Looks like the IMSA are interested in LMP1-Privateer class in DP International class. Of course, my concern is whether ACO will work with their American counterparts to let the prototype teams race with WEC regulars in LMP1.

Well, considering that they were TRYING to work with IMSA on the whole DPi teams in P2 until IMSA decided not to budge on having no changes to the DPi cars that would run Le Mans, I don't see why they wouldn't attempt to work IMSA on DPi in LMP1.

[carbsmith]

The ACO said early on that the IMSA DPi would be eligible at Le Mans, but only using [spec] bodywork and having [spec] electronics consistent with [WEC] LMP2s," he said. "If you go through progressions of that process, the defining moment occurred when we made it known to the ACO that IMSA would not be requiring DPi manufacturers to use the Cosworth ACO-spec LMP2 electronics

Funny how the internet (including media members) have been trying to tell me the ACO changed the rules to screw IMSA instead of what IMSA themselves admit happened.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Well, considering that they were TRYING to work with IMSA on the whole DPi teams in P2 until IMSA decided not to budge on having no changes to the DPi cars that would run Le Mans, I don't see why they wouldn't attempt to work IMSA on DPi in LMP1.

I will try to be charitable and say that that is an very ... unique reading of the actual events.

ACO said basically that every DPi had to unmake and remake itself to come a Le Mans-legal P2. New bodywork, new engine, new suspension to deal with the new tires, new ECU and thus all new programming. I guess the steering wheel and seat could have been the same. otherwise ....

I do not blame the ACO, nor do I see anything wrong with them sticking to their rules, but it is pretty clear that any talk of compromise from ACO was pure BS ... IMSA could have handled the tires and bodywork, but engines and ECUs too? At that point it would be cheaper to buy a fresh P2 ... which completely defeats the purpose.

I respect you a good deal based on many years of reading your posts, so this time all I will say is that you somehow seem to have added the integers and come up with a sum which is an imaginary number. Not everyone could do that.

[carbsmith]

Are you seriously suggesting customer prototypes have completely different suspension parts for different tire makers? Even running under the same regulations Le Mans has different bodywork and different tires than any other race, I don't know why an ELMS team can afford to run a low drag kit and change their suspension setup for one race but an IMSA team can't?

It would be easy to run the FIA spec ECU in IMSA if there was any intention of actually following the rules ever.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Are you seriously suggesting customer prototypes have completely different suspension parts for different tire makers? Even running under the same regulations Le Mans has different bodywork and different tires than any other race, I don't know why an ELMS team can afford to run a low drag kit and change their suspension setup for one race but an IMSA team can't?

It would be easy to run the FIA spec ECU in IMSA if there was any intention of actually following the rules ever.

No, DPis wouldn't need full new suspensions ... just all the data they had collected on Continentals would be worthless.

Bodywork ... which might not even fit over the engine, and air intakes which didn't actually feed the air intakes. And .... Entirely new engines. You tried to grab the low-hanging fruit but you missed.

Yeah, an ELMS team which comes over for the Roar, Daytona, and Sebring had to use Contis .... but they don't have to fit bodywork which actually didn't fit. And last I heard, the whole reason they came was because their cars were eligible.

I hadn't heard about ELMS or WEC teams needing to buy whole new engines and ECUs just to race in the U.S. Maybe you could point me to the article that mentions that?

(Oh, and which year was it that the Corvettes went to le Mans and couldn't get the good Michelins and lost pretty badly after switching over from other rubber? You know I am not making this stuff up ... so why bother arguing?)

My whole point in any case was that it wasn't IMSA that was being intransigent, but ACO which was reneging on its promises. That is fairly clearly documented---links are in this thread if you care to search them out. If not ... good day to you sir.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I will try to be charitable and say that that is an very ... unique reading of the actual events.

ACO said basically that every DPi had to unmake and remake itself to come a Le Mans-legal P2. New bodywork, new engine, new suspension to deal with the new tires, new ECU and thus all new programming.

The original plan, from the beginning, was that the DPis would have to use ACO-spec everything EXCEPT the engine, which would be the same engines they ran in IMSA. Since the DPis will be built off of ACO-spec chassis to begin with, this would not be as big an issue as many beleive. IMSA insisted on running DPis with absolutely nothing changed and absolutely refused to budge on it.

I respect you a good deal based on many years of reading your posts, so this time all I will say is that you somehow seem to have added the integers and come up with a sum which is an imaginary number. Not everyone could do that

I've talked to people who actually were present at the meetings that ultimately led to the current situation. The matter is not pretty and does not reflect well on IMSA's management.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

(Oh, and which year was it that the Corvettes went to le Mans and couldn't get the good Michelins and lost pretty badly after switching over from other rubber? You know I am not making this stuff up ... so why bother arguing?)

So your example of why switching from Contis to Dunlops is a problem is a Michelin team that had problems on the LM spec Michelins? That supports what I said, which is that Le Mans is so different from other races that everyone has to deal with that problem regardless.

ACO never said they had to switch engines until the ECU thing couldn't be sorted out.

[schmidder]

Imsa should just grandfather all the current p2s into their 2017 rule set, give the current (and no maybe some a few years old) cars a place to run next year...and work on 2018 p class rules without aco involvement. Imsa should be trying attract anyone it can. I would think some of the p2 machinery out there after this year could be got for a good deal..even if only eligible for a couple of years..

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[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

So your example of why switching from Contis to Dunlops is a problem is a Michelin team that had problems on the LM spec Michelins?

yeah a team which didn’t get the good tires, which was a proven winner, performed poorly because of the tires. Which is exactly what would likely happen to every DPi team which had to try to learn the proper suspension settings and pressure setting to get the most out of tires which the teams had never seen before.

The difference between two types of Michelins screwed Corvette .... DPis would be trying to adjust from rock-hard Contis to completely foreign tires.

You can claim that it wouldn‘t make a difference. You can claim that elephants are giraffes.

Originally Posted by carbsmith

ACO never said they had to switch engines until the ECU thing couldn't be sorted out.

Right ... but of course each engine and ECU are basically a package. One ECU cannot work every engine unless it is programmed to do so ... which would have put the IMSA teams that much further behind. So of course IMSA didn't want to do that to its teams.

I mean, look at what you said ... ACO told IMSA they had to switch engines ... which originally wasn’t part of the deal. And yes, sorry to point out the obvious, the engine management system is an essential part of the engine.

So ... ACO originally said no engine change would be needed, but apparently never really meant it, which was what I said.

Again, I respect ACO’s right to makes its own rules in its own series, but it does seem that certain promises were made and then reneged upon. While I am absolutely sure the IMSA officials were not easy to deal with, it is absolutely clear that ACO changed the deal a few times along the way.

I don’t much care. I don’t think DPis belong at le Mans ... unless there is a class for them. I also don’t think LMP1-P belongs in DPi or vice versa.

I also realize that neither of us is going to get that worked up about what the other thinks.

Hope you enjoyed the 24, if you watched it. Quite the emotional race, some say.

[Rcz]

I agree with the posts that say just adopt the old P2 cars.

Adopt the orphan P2, give them DP regulated engines and be done with it. Would save a lot of money for some teams like Shank for ect. And they might even get some European as a net bonus.

The new P2 are probably not that different from the old ones anyway. There's a lot of P2 that won't have a chance to run anywhere so cease the chance.

[Maelochs]

What about spares? What about written-off tubs? I doubt Oak and Oreca want to make limited runs of noses and dive planes and the odd spare tub ... keep a whole production line open for a few customers in IMSA. Factory space is not free.

Not to be negative, but basing a series on obsolete cars which are out of production seems to be like starting a race on a leash ... you know you are going to get jerked to a halt before you can go far.

[schmidder]

Not basing a series, but just a year or two..I see your point, but I think it could work..there,are a lot of p2 cars out there with nowhere to run next year.

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[Rcz]

I didn't say the new P2 couldn't races. They can be there along with the old cars.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Rcz

I didn't say the new P2 couldn't races. They can be there along with the old cars.

yeah ... more BoP between disparate chassis is exactly what I want.

Whatever .... we'd still end up in the same boat a couple years down the road ... but who knows what the world will look then?

[Rcz]

I just think they should try to aim for the maximum and try to get as many protoypes on field.

600-650 hp, that should make them plenty fast, might even bite the heals of those P1 privateer cars, hell we might even see a Rebellion car in the IMSA races someday if they go this route.

Yep, there will need to be some equivalent formula used, perhaps use twice a year, instead of a BoP every race, and preferably only boost the slower cars up.

I'm against slowing a faster car down.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by schmidder

Not basing a series, but just a year or two..I see your point, but I think it could work..there,are a lot of p2 cars out there with nowhere to run next year.

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Voila:

Existing LMP2 cars will be grandfathered into the FIA WEC for 2017 and in the ELMS through 2018, with the Asian LMS only accepting previous-generation cars through 2018.

from http://sportscar365.com/industry/201...unced-in-july/ [June 2015]

So

WEC, IMSA - 2017
ELMS, AsLMS - 2017 + 2018

That sounds like quite a bit of lifetime left in the current, closed-top P2 cars.

Also the initial confirmation publication by the FIA never mentioned the ECU, just the requirement for DPi's to have their generic bodywork on the car when wanting to participate at LM24: http://www.fia.com/news/2017-lmp2-re...ctors-selected

[TF110]

Reading that racer article is like seeing common sense. P2 is not where dpi belong. Lmp1-L is. Factory engines with a customer chassis is basically what the class is now. No spec bs though. They can use one of those new p2 chassis's but it's not required. This can entice someone like hpd to use their car, or try to sell it and provide some help with it. Everyone talks of variety, so this would be an awesome opportunity for that to happen at Le Mans and in the U.S. If the dpi's are aligned with lmp1-L, we might actually have Rebellion come run the NAEC races with their car. Or maybe Strakka wants a shot to win overall. This is a big opportunity imo, and somethig I've been saying they should do for months.

[Maelochs]

[QUOTE=TF110;3653873] P2 is not where dpi belong. Lmp1-L is. [quote]Not sure a stock-block pushrod V8 is a fair match for a twin-turbo v6 race engine, and I am pretty sure a cobbled-together mod of a P2 chassis with "designer" bodywork is no match for a P1 chassis with designed-to-be-slippery bodywork.

In DP1 the engines are kind of mild mods designed to encourage factory participation at minimum investment---not a bad compromise by any means, but heavier for the power than a bespoke racing engine.

The bodywork is a massive compromise, designed for looks, not speed. P1-P cars are designed to be as efficient as possible---worlds of difference. Look at CotA lap times.

Scott Pruett secured the overall pole for Saturday’s 2 hour, 40 minute IMSA race in the Ganassi Ford Riley
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...ng-report.html
http://www.dailysportscar.com/wp-con...Qualifying.pdf
Pos-Class Pos-# Class-----Drivers-----Best Time---Speed-- ---------Make
1------1-------01-P-----Hand/Pruett----1:58.441---103.343 --Ford EcoBoost Riley DP

After Friday afternoon’s qualifying session for the 2015 Lone Star Le Mans FIA WEC 6 Hours of COTA race, Nick Heidfeld and Mathias Beche secured their third Pole position of the season in the LMP1 Privateers for the #12 Rebellion R-One AER. They achieved an average lap time of 1:53.950 and a fastest lap of 1:53.773.
http://www.endurance-info.com/en/reb...h-row-at-cota/

So P1-P is five seconds quicker around CotA than the best-qualifying and race-winning DP. How much faster are the DPis expected to be, with approximately the same power and a little less weight? A few seconds, maybe, but Five seconds?

Again we would be looking at BoP, which in my opinion has No place in prototype racing.

You can be sure rebellion would be willing to come across the pond if the money was right, because the team would be assured of a win ... but wait, since this is IMSA, the Rebellion would be BoP'd into submission like the old P2s were (and the DPs were earlier this season.)

I tell you, it just sucks. The money men are ruining racing.