|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
2 Mar 2024, 13:52 (Ref:4199390) | #776 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 176
|
Quote:
Basically we learn that what was sold to everyone as a BoP has shifted to a balance of results. No one signed for this. Plus, they are adding criteria every 6 months and we have now cars running heavier than what they were designed for. Safety ? What is that ? It was also told that no car could be selected for Le Mans alone because any car needed to be "BoPed" by racing before. Now, LM24 has a specific BoP that has nothing to do with the rest. Looking like a headless chicken to me. Credibility of the process is running away, fast. If this is transparency, well I prefer it to be inpenetrable. |
||
|
2 Mar 2024, 13:57 (Ref:4199394) | #777 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,024
|
It's almost like they are trying to tweak it to make it better.
|
||
__________________
Brum brum |
2 Mar 2024, 14:31 (Ref:4199409) | #778 | |
Racer
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 176
|
Better than what ? When does this chase stop ? This makes no sense at all.
|
|
|
2 Mar 2024, 14:36 (Ref:4199410) | #779 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,024
|
Better than the last iteration was. It never stops. It will always be able to be made better. Quite appropriate for a sport!
As with so much in the world it is about continual development. With any real world model you have to continually make it better. And in this situation you do it with others having input too, new cars, changes to cars, tracks, etc... all while managing several stakeholders. Off topic, but there is a great race going on. |
||
__________________
Brum brum |
2 Mar 2024, 18:09 (Ref:4199564) | #780 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 6,497
|
Let's get in early - Porsche power drop/weight bump incoming.
|
||
__________________
BoP is democracy for racing. |
2 Mar 2024, 18:31 (Ref:4199575) | #781 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,184
|
Since results are now taken into account, for sure.
|
|
|
2 Mar 2024, 18:39 (Ref:4199576) | #782 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,331
|
Porsche will see an bump up, Toyota will get a reduction of 10-20kg, similar for a few others, Cadillac will stand pat, but yes there will be some evening out by the next two races.
|
||
__________________
Here's to the new age of Sports car/Prototypes... |
2 Mar 2024, 18:48 (Ref:4199581) | #783 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,024
|
I think we've learnt something we've already knew!
Let's look at Ferrari BoP to Porsche BoP. Porsche gained 2kg v. Ferrari, but gained 2kW. So really no difference. Yet the relative performance has swung to Porsche. Why could that be?
Interesting things to consider, or comedy theories, when thinking about BoP:
On the interesting points from tomcug's post and link https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...r-bop-process/ I think there are some good tweaks there.
Mostly I look forward to the next race. |
||
__________________
Brum brum |
2 Mar 2024, 19:13 (Ref:4199591) | #784 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Oct 2022
Posts: 21
|
I am a diehard Porsche fan and extremely happy with the results but yes there has to be some slight tweeking. The thing that there was absolutely no chance of 4 LMDh's finishing in the top 4 last year is a big deal. It is good to see that WEC/ACO have made some changes. It should give BMW Lambo and Alpine some hope that they have a chance. Porsche had the best data/setup for the unique Qatar tire deg. and that led to an overall strong performance all week. Imola is a completely different circuit so let's see what Rd. 2 brings. Before that lets enjoy Sebring (IMSA) in two weeks with Porsche ,Cadillac, Acura, BMW and Lambo. I am sure it is gonna be a good one!!!
|
||
|
2 Mar 2024, 19:15 (Ref:4199592) | #785 | |
Racer
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 176
|
All of this comes from the fact the ACO were not patient enough with the very first system trying to balance fully developped cars (well the GR010) and extremely well rehearsed teams (well the one there for ten years of course) with newcomers.
Now they are prisoners of their own logic with a view on balancing every car, every team on every track. To do that, the BoP process gets even more complicated, but it will never achieve what it is designed for. All the cars are different (whatever the BoP does), teams and cars progress at different rates etc... Today we saw Proton lagging behind Penske and Jota with the same car. What if Penske and Jota were "Protons" last year, unable to exctract potential from the car ? Over reacting to several cars and teams difficulties last year threw away any chance of having a sensible long term BoP process. It has become GT3esque very quickly, and will never recover, whatever new features get add-in. |
|
|
2 Mar 2024, 19:32 (Ref:4199594) | #786 | ||||||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,024
|
By the same logic, after one race we cannot tell.
Quote:
They are patient and indeed one of the tweaks you mention is to state they will make any future changes slowly. They must be listening to you! Perhaps Penske developed into the most extremely well rehearsed team now and we are just perfectly balanced. Quote:
If you are suggesting that it is designed to make every car exactly the same performance then no it won't ever be perfect. Although it is damn close - there are single make series with more variation. Not that this is what it is designed for. But to help overall they need to develop the method and keep collecting the data. This is standard practice with any method, model, or approach across practically any industry. Quote:
Quote:
What are we recovering from? |
||||||
__________________
Brum brum |
2 Mar 2024, 19:55 (Ref:4199598) | #787 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,024
|
Although my main point it that we can’t tell. Other than it is pretty close out there. And there are some certain themes that are pleasing to see, such as experience helps, driver and team variations are > magnitude than BoP variations, and things that make endurance racing what it is like tyre management and strategy are still in the series.
|
||
__________________
Brum brum |
2 Mar 2024, 21:12 (Ref:4199609) | #788 | |
Racer
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 176
|
We can't tell, but we could have. So sad.
|
|
|
2 Mar 2024, 21:20 (Ref:4199613) | #789 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,024
|
How could we tell? How can anyone tell!?
The uncertainties in the measurement are too great. |
||
__________________
Brum brum |
3 Mar 2024, 03:37 (Ref:4199654) | #790 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,565
|
I have said it before that the new teams needed time to come good. Thats what I think has happened. Porsche I think has made the most strides because they have the most cars therefore the most data. I think they should have left the bop alone from the end of last year. The cars running as-is from the last race in Bahrain. I think that should have happened and then see how this race turned out. Too late now so lets see what happens for Imola.
|
|
|
3 Mar 2024, 04:36 (Ref:4199657) | #791 | |||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,024
|
Quote:
The big change is that Porsche and particularly Penske improved. Could be Qatar, but probably it is an underlying improvement as Daytona suggested too. |
|||
__________________
Brum brum |
3 Mar 2024, 10:48 (Ref:4199696) | #792 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 6,497
|
A post-race comment that might be useful in determining Toyota's BoP for Imola:
Quote:
Ferrari's pace was also quite close to Cadillac (who were very close to Porsche/Peugeot), the time was lost for all three cars due to incidents. |
|||
__________________
BoP is democracy for racing. |
3 Mar 2024, 14:35 (Ref:4199732) | #793 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,331
|
So, outside of incidents on track and mistakes in the pit, the field is more closer to each other than previously. The four new entrants, one crossing over from a series that shares rules, another returning after building their new charge, and two others that are unknown to this level of racing as a competitor, not just a supporter.
Once again, for the newcomers, it will take time for them to get their footing. That's the thing about this BoP, it has the ability to make the sport more stable and welcome new entrants as time and spaces allow. |
||
__________________
Here's to the new age of Sports car/Prototypes... |
3 Mar 2024, 16:34 (Ref:4199740) | #794 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 591
|
Toyota (Benchmark team, 12 years experience, well developed car) on top, "BoP bad!!!"
Porsche podium sweep, 5/top 10, "Let's wait a minute, here they are still tweaking" FFS. Let's admit they (ACO/FIA) did and are fk'ing up. They are so anxious to embrace farcical stories/fairy tales and contrived entertainment for the flashy brands that they hurriedly nerfed Toyota into oblivion instead of doing what they should/could have done and use it as a litmus test to gauge the development of the other teams and cars. The newer manufacturers were never going to stand still. Why punish the guys who've been putting in the hard work and have been the glue that held the WEC together for us to get to this point? I'm sure Toyota relish the competition and the opportunity to close the mouths of the detractors who continually claim their achievements amount to naught but lets be for real here. The amount of times Toyota have had to change and update design specs to make the cars suit the current iteration of the regs, only for the ACO/FIA to LITERALLY rewrite the regs to be able to add more ballast and push the tyres into an unsafe envelope is patently ridiculous. Lets see what Imola and Spa bring to the table. |
|
|
3 Mar 2024, 16:52 (Ref:4199743) | #795 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,024
|
BoP. Brilliant or Pants.
Man, I don’t see how bad it had become and how dramatically awful it was. I mean FFS!
I have to hand it to you as I could not see any of that. When I look at the times of the cars and the BoP adjustments I’m not CLEVER enough to deduce any of that. I’d be wrong to suggest that if the Bahrain and Qatar results were the other way round you could practically write the same thing. To me it looked like the natural variations of circuit, tyres, drivers, teams was much greater than the spread of the cars. I just, NAIVELY, thought that meant that getting it perfect would be really hard and that to get everything so close was a job well done. Especially while attracting so many entrants. I recon that the changes we see for Imola and Spa will support your theory perfectly. |
||
__________________
Brum brum |
3 Mar 2024, 22:42 (Ref:4199787) | #796 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,014
|
Better = Toyota don't win even though they are the best?
Seems like a joke. For Toyota to be a lap down in Qatar with the best car is ridiculous. I have to say this seems like WEC and Le Mans 24 hour with zero credibility. It makes the championship unwatchable. Even worse than IMSA! Quote:
Robbing Toyota of race victories and giving them to Porsche is a job well done? That's even worse than robbing Acura of a Daytona 24 hour victory (or some kind of chance), at least they were on the lead lap... |
||
|
3 Mar 2024, 22:49 (Ref:4199788) | #797 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,014
|
||
|
3 Mar 2024, 23:01 (Ref:4199789) | #798 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,024
|
Thanks for bolding things otherwise I wouldn’t have understood what you said. Perhaps I should have bolded things in my post so you understood what I meant. Or did you decide to just infer other things from my post anyway rather than make an effort to understand my point?
What is good is that there are options of what to watch. But crikey there is a lot of anger here. Again, I am amazed that everyone can be so categorically sure about things here. I’ll calm down on the sarcasm if we can calm down on the hyperbole, swearing and hating about something that is frankly not that important. I am failing to take it all that seriously. All I’ve actually said is that it is close out there, it is hard to do this stuff, and it is practically impossible to get it better than it is. I’m interested in how it works, how it is working, and the current pecking order. I consider these things. Last edited by Adam43; 3 Mar 2024 at 23:09. |
||
__________________
Brum brum |
3 Mar 2024, 23:07 (Ref:4199792) | #799 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,184
|
||
|
3 Mar 2024, 23:07 (Ref:4199793) | #800 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,014
|
Quote:
To render IMSA and WEC unwatchable is on the organisers and their decisions. BOP shouldn't manipulate who wins the race. To put so much weight on some cars is just absurd IMO. Quote:
BOP is necessary in GT3. It should not be necessary in prototype classes -- be it MotoGP, Formula One or LMP. Unlike GT3 cars that are different, LMP cars are all more or less the same (unless you choose LMDh because you are too cheap). |
|||
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
The one and only official 10/10ths BOP thread | Great Dane | Sportscar & GT Racing | 32 | 7 Apr 2017 01:13 |
[FIA GT] FIA BoP Sheets | CS21476895 | Sportscar & GT Racing | 1 | 18 May 2015 14:10 |
P1 BOP in 2014? | Christian Mogami | Sportscar & GT Racing | 2 | 8 Jun 2013 07:08 |
ESM Ferrari 458 restrictor team BoP vote . | The Badger | Sportscar & GT Racing | 22 | 25 Oct 2012 06:03 |
Brilliant brilliant MotoGP | gfm | Bike Racing | 18 | 7 Jun 2005 12:48 |