[Tech Issue] Pirelli-The Tyre Story..

[garcon]

Pirelli reprimanded.

Or in other words, FIA concede they have no jurisdiction over FOM suppliers. Anything more severe and Pirelli would have politely invited the FIA to go **** themselves.

[Marbot]

Yeah. Can't help but feel that the tail is wagging the dog.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by garcon

Pirelli reprimanded.

Or in other words, FIA concede they have no jurisdiction over FOM suppliers. Anything more severe and Pirelli would have politely invited the FIA to go **** themselves.

+1

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Yeah. Can't help but feel that the tail is wagging the dog.

That will keep happening for years in F1, until there is a change of control. Similar hear in Aus, V8Supercars do different things to the norm, CAMS like FIA , dont have that much sway. a recentr event highlighted this.

Bit like having a Sign up "beware of the tiger, p.s. he is toothless"

[ScotsBrutesFan]

The problem was always going to be the unspoken threat by Pirelli, that any r.uling against them and they'd pack up and walk away leaving team no tyres to play with.

[jsTrecu]

So that's it, eh ?
Expected, but still disapointing...

[davyboy]

Given what MB did, and the benefit they derived from it, it's a ridiculous punishment. You gotta wonder what went on behind the scenes here... and what threats MB made.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Merc banned from young driver test + reprimanded.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108180

They got off lightly. As for the costs, they will be split between Mercedes, Pirelli and the FIA.

Doesn't this set a precedent? In which case this sort of opens the door for any team to have a tyre testing session, if this is what they can expect.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

They got off lightly. As for the costs, they will be split between Mercedes, Pirelli and the FIA.

Doesn't this set a precedent? In which case this sort of opens the door for any team to have a tyre testing session, if this is what they can expect.

Well the FIA are now going to 'clamp down' on testing as a result of this... whatever that means.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108185

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

They got off lightly. As for the costs, they will be split between Mercedes, Pirelli and the FIA.

Doesn't this set a precedent? In which case this sort of opens the door for any team to have a tyre testing session WITH TYRES THAT THEY CAN'T SUBSEQUENTLY USE, if this is what they can expect.

Surely my edit is the point......Pirelli were apparently testing different tyres which they hoped to use to alleviate the durability issues experienced upto that that point, and to use perhaps next year......if anyone in FIA ever gets around to negotiating a tyre deal for next year......

I don't have a problem with any of the other teams testing tyres that they can't use, but I really don't see the point.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Surely my edit is the point......Pirelli were apparently testing different tyres which they hoped to use to alleviate the durability issues experienced upto that that point, and to use perhaps next year......if anyone in FIA ever gets around to negotiating a tyre deal for next year......

I don't have a problem with any of the other teams testing tyres that they can't use, but I really don't see the point.

Sure isn't that the whole point of tyre testing ? No point in testing tyres you have used

Seriously though, we have no idea what they tested. What we do know is that 1] any testing is beneficial to an F1 team and 2] it was against the rules.

[Spritle]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

I don't have a problem with any of the other teams testing tyres that they can't use, but I really don't see the point.

Davy beat me to it but to reiterate:

Provided Merc was ONLY testing 2014 tyres...

...and not 2013 aero bits, suspension parts, engine maps, etc.

Does anyone REALLY know what MB did on that day when no one was around except their drivers in unmarked helmets?

As for the penalty, I don't know what they deserved but this was even more of a slap than I expected. I really wish the FIA would end this witch-hunt nonsense and come up a set of rules that are clear with STATED penalties...

...not to mention a resumption of a reasonable testing schedule. Maybe going forward the rules breakers should pay a heavy fine which ONLY goes to the Caterhams of the world so they can afford to test with the big boys who ultimately are the cheaters...

...err, rules breakers.

[Greem]

So will the grandstands will be quiet and viewing figures down for the British Grand Prix as all the "if MB don't get punished properly I'll never watch F1 again" people walk away?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Greem

So will the grandstands will be quiet and viewing figures down for the British Grand Prix as all the "if MB don't get punished properly I'll never watch F1 again" people walk away?

dont worry we will just reprimand ourselves for watching it but only after we have watched it, complained about it, and told everyone that we are going home and never coming back!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Greem

So will the grandstands will be quiet and viewing figures down for the British Grand Prix as all the "if MB don't get punished properly I'll never watch F1 again" people walk away?

This reminds me a little about the time time Kraft Foods acquired Cadburys. I was working in Birmingham then and a local radio station was holding a phone in. After one woman finished ranting about how evil Kraft were and how there should be street protests etc... the presenter said... "you seem to feel particularly irate about this, I presume that you're planning on boycotting Cadbury's chocolate". The woman replied... I wouldn't take things that far

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Surely my edit is the point......Pirelli were apparently testing different tyres which they hoped to use to alleviate the durability issues experienced upto that that point, and to use perhaps next year......if anyone in FIA ever gets around to negotiating a tyre deal for next year......

I don't have a problem with any of the other teams testing tyres that they can't use, but I really don't see the point.

I don't like people editing what I post, unless it's way off thread or breeches forum rules. Just say it your self dude.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by Spritle

Davy beat me to it but to reiterate:

Provided Merc was ONLY testing 2014 tyres...

...and not 2013 aero bits, suspension parts, engine maps, etc.

Does anyone REALLY know what MB did on that day when no one was around except their drivers in unmarked helmets?

Well, it has been confirmed that Pirelli were paying for the test, so arguably Mercedes weren't testing anything, merely providing the vehicle....but I can't imagine that if Pirelli wanted to test a variety of tyres, they would have been awfully impressed with Mercedes changing a variety of other parameters which could have impacted on the tyre data.

I presume that somebody "REALLY knows" what went on...but it almost certainly isn't anyone posting on here, so as usual all vehement assertions, passionate defences/accusations etc are based on nothing other than personal opinions.......and I doubt whether the colour of the driver's helmets hadn't anything to do with anything

[davyboy]

Another thing to consider here is Pirelli's predicament. How are they expected to develop tyres to run effectively on a contemporary F1 car when they've no way of testing them on a contemporary F1 car ? Martin Brundle said a while back that the test hack they'd been using before was fitted with all measure of spurious aero devices in a vain effort to 'bring it up to date' but it wasn't representative. This tyre contract seems to be more and more of a poisoned chalice... you have to wonder why they'd want to continue it.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Greem

So will the grandstands will be quiet and viewing figures down for the British Grand Prix as all the "if MB don't get punished properly I'll never watch F1 again" people walk away?

Significantly lower Ticket Sales for Silverstone and falling television ratings in the UK and worldwide would suggest they don't Mercedes not being punished properly for that to happen.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Another thing to consider here is Pirelli's predicament. How are they expected to develop tyres to run effectively on a contemporary F1 car when they've no way of testing them on a contemporary F1 car ?

i think the larger problem (or for me anyways but i have an agenda) is how are the teams and the fans expected to think that Pirelli are developing tires from a neutral perspective? this was effectively one of the chief concerns about Bridgestone, which to their credit acted in a completely impartial way to all the teams despite their prior relationship with Ferrari.

hyperbole non withstanding, for those of us who have been on the anti Pirelli train this sort of confirms all of our worst fears about what the nature of the tires are, the intentional manipulation of a sporting event, and the complicity the governing body has in taking us down this road.

of course its very valid to say the devil you know is better than not having any tires at all for next year and if thats the case then i can live with the outcome but it has to be acknowledged, imo, that making the best tires for everybody never was nor ever will be Pirelli's goal in F1.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i think the larger problem (or for me anyways but i have an agenda) is how are the teams and the fans expected to think that Pirelli are developing tires from a neutral perspective? this was effectively one of the chief concerns about Bridgestone, which to their credit acted in a completely impartial way to all the teams despite their prior relationship with Ferrari.

hyperbole non withstanding, for those of us who have been on the anti Pirelli train this sort of confirms all of our worst fears about what the nature of the tires are, the intentional manipulation of a sporting event, and the complicity the governing body has in taking us down this road.

of course its very valid to say the devil you know is better than not having any tires at all for next year and if thats the case then i can live with the outcome but it has to be acknowledged, imo, that making the best tires for everybody never was nor ever will be Pirelli's goal in F1.

There are four tyre compounds to choose from, and these should not be changed during a season in order to be fair to all of the competitors. Were you one of those that wanted the compounds to be changed?

Pirelli were asked specifically to make tyres that lasted for around 20 laps and given the varying nature of the cars and track surfaces, they seem to have done a pretty good job.

If Bridgestone had been asked to do the same, but turned up with tyres that lasted forever, I can only imagine that they would now be receiving just as much flak for being the cause of processional races.

Mercedes did gain an "unfair sporting advantage".

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108181

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Marbot

There are four tyre compounds to choose from, and these should not be changed during a season in order to be fair to all of the competitors. Were you one of those that wanted the compounds to be changed?

im the one that has been saying just bring all 4 compounds to each race. its for the teams to decide what works best not an outside supplier making choices ahead of time. that and get rid of the Q3 rules.

choice is the way out of this mess not more restriction. as for extra cost, its a marginal one not an exponential one imo. so yeah i suppose that would be a change to the rules and effect one team more than another etc. i can accept that it wont happen during the year (unsporting) but i still do think its the correct way forward

also i hate the excuse 'its not my fault i was told to do that'. im probably irrationally fixating on that aspect of this but i really really dont like when people use that rationalization.

at the very least they specialize in making tires...i just cant support a company that cant even take ownership of the product they specialize in.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

im the one that has been saying just bring all 4 compounds to each race. its for the teams to decide what works best not an outside supplier making choices ahead of time. that and get rid of the Q3 rules.

That could work if you bring all of the compounds, but the same amount of tyres. And I wouldn't be bothered about which corner of the car you could put them on.

I would also like to see qualifying tyres brought back. Pirelli wanted this, but the teams didn't. Go figure. Or perhaps some teams objected to some other teams starting the race on a fresh set of whatever compound tyres?

Originally Posted by chillibowl

choice is the way out of this mess not more restriction. as for extra cost, its a marginal one not an exponential one imo. so yeah i suppose that would be a change to the rules and effect one team more than another etc. i can accept that it wont happen during the year (unsporting) but i still do think its the correct way forward

As for costs, who will pay for extra tyres?

All costs are marginal unless you are paying for them.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

also i hate the excuse 'its not my fault i was told to do that'. im probably irrationally fixating on that aspect of this but i really really dont like when people use that rationalization.

Pirelli were mandated to provide a certain kind of tyre, which would also keep costs down.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

at the very least they specialize in making tires...i just cant support a company that cant even take ownership of the product they specialize in.

They could probably provide a race tyre that could last for at least 2 GPs. Is that what F1 wants?

I get fed up with people who keep asking for a "race distance tyre". What on Earth is a "race distance tyre"? Is it a tyre that used to just last for a 'race distance' before the tyre technology of the day cried enough?

Ferrari's 'Horse Whisperer' is up to its usual stuff.

"Don't tell me that testing for three days on your own at the Catalunya circuit is the same as doing so with nine other teams at Silverstone with a host of young hopefuls at the wheel, in an area where the weather can still be changeable even in the height of summer.

"And what if this whole incident had taken place after the young driver test, what would have been the penalty then? Would they have been forbidden from holding an end of year dinner?"



Although, it's not actually that funny. Particularly as this was the penalty suggested by Mercedes, themselves. hmmmm


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108196

[littleman]

The judgement was entirely predictable in my view.

Right & wrong, justice,fair play etc,etc are noble and worthy aspirations but they seldom influence a case of this nature.

These sort of disputes revolve around Power and Control. The FIA had neither and were never going to administer more than a token "slap on the hand"

If the team involved had been Marussia or Caterham then they'd probably have been banned for the rest of the season.

You can't play poker with someone holding all the ace's!

[Greem]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Significantly lower Ticket Sales for Silverstone and falling television ratings in the UK and worldwide would suggest they don't Mercedes not being punished properly for that to happen.

I think a "need" was missing there, but I think we're in agreement anyway.

Reducing disposable income, frankly ludicrous ticket prices (in my opinion, I wouldn't be able to afford it if I wasn't marshalling), and the terrible experience with last year's weather have all conspired to damage this year's attendance. Add to that the extremely unlikely outcome of a British driver winning and I'm not surprised.

What I was getting at though was the people on this thread and on other Internet thingmies saying "If they don't get a fifteen race ban and a billion pound fine I will never watch F1/post on the Internet again".

They will.