Audi LMP1 Discussion

[Creep89]

Well Hackenberg confirmed back in June Audi will run a battery powered hybrid next year. I don't now why it's still "big" news.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

To get back to what I was saying about similar aero concepts, especially at the front of the car, I think that these photos will illustrate it, namely with how air is managed around the inboard section of the front fenders, namely below the winglets of the LM spec car and the nostrils on the original sprint spec car:

Nurburgring:



Silverstone:



Postscript: Mulsanne Mike has confirmed on his FB page for Audi to be moving to 6MJ next season with a battery-powered hybrid system.

I do wonder if we will see Audi switch back to something closer to the original iteration of the Spa-spec car, with the additional openings on the front fenders, above the diveplanes. Audi have admitted that they were unable to make those front tyres reach their optimal performance window and I do wonder if these openings may help in that respect. Just speculation.

[chernaudi]

I thought that the holes were to reduce drag? But I do have to say that Audi added a cambered trailing edge to the tail of the R18 prior to the Nurburgring round, but they didn't make any changes from what I saw to the front end.

Either Audi will show up at COTA with a modified nose, or they might be testing something influenced by the early season sprint package, or possibly as an answer to Porsche's updates at the Nurburgring (?).

Reading what went on at Nurburgring, either Audi needs more front end mechanical grip, or, probably, more front downforce--especially considering the lack of changes to the nose in spite of changes to the rear of the car.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I thought that the holes were to reduce drag? But I do have to say that Audi added a cambered trailing edge to the tail of the R18 prior to the Nurburgring round, but they didn't make any changes from what I saw to the front end.

Either Audi will show up at COTA with a modified nose, or they might be testing something influenced by the early season sprint package, or possibly as an answer to Porsche's updates at the Nurburgring (?).

Reading what went on at Nurburgring, either Audi needs more front end mechanical grip, or, probably, more front downforce--especially considering the lack of changes to the nose in spite of changes to the rear of the car.

I doubt they are for reducing drag, since they were plugged for Le Mans. I think the air curtain theory makes more sense, but they are still a mystery. It was even a mystery to me why they plugged them for Le Mans, but I couldn't believe they were not open for Nurburgring, like they were in Spa.

[Gingers4Justice]

Nice posts, chernaudi, which go some way to answering some of my musings. Perhaps I over-egged the point about how different Audi's various packages are.

But going back to J Jay's "too many cooks" quip, I still think there's potential danger in Audi not really knowing what their best package is. I've never seen a team re-work a car quite to that extent from race to race in one season - in any category. Ever F1 teams, with far larger budgets, don't change their aero set-ups as often or as dramatically from Grand Prix to Grand Prix quite like Audi has this season.

Who knows, it might pay off - we still have half the season left, and Audi might use the Magny Cours test to optimise the set-up of the R18 for each track. I don't know whether the FRIC suspension makes the R18 more temperamental than its rivals, but it seems rather strange that Audi go through all these different aero configurations from circuit to circuit and still end up around the same sort of performance window as the 919, which changes far less from race to race - maybe that's a car running at 4MJ needs to keep up with a car running at 8MJ?

[chernaudi]

One thing that I think bears mentioning: Audi have run a much more cambered tail trailing edge at the Nurbringring, both at the test days and the race weekend. I didn't notice any changes to the front of the car to balance out those changes at the rear. And at both Spa and Nurburgring, Audi were running the front diffuser flaps at maximum angle.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Nice posts, chernaudi, which go some way to answering some of my musings. Perhaps I over-egged the point about how different Audi's various packages are.

But going back to J Jay's "too many cooks" quip, I still think there's potential danger in Audi not really knowing what their best package is. I've never seen a team re-work a car quite to that extent from race to race in one season - in any category. Ever F1 teams, with far larger budgets, don't change their aero set-ups as often or as dramatically from Grand Prix to Grand Prix quite like Audi has this season.

Who knows, it might pay off - we still have half the season left, and Audi might use the Magny Cours test to optimise the set-up of the R18 for each track. I don't know whether the FRIC suspension makes the R18 more temperamental than its rivals, but it seems rather strange that Audi go through all these different aero configurations from circuit to circuit and still end up around the same sort of performance window as the 919, which changes far less from race to race - maybe that's a car running at 4MJ needs to keep up with a car running at 8MJ?

The point of FRIC as I understand it is to provide a stable chassis platform for the aero to work more reliably on (e.g. keeping the nose up under braking, reducing roll through corners), such that it will be less temperamental and provide more consistent downforce. It'd be some own goal if this has actually made the R18 more finicky, although I can imagine a scenario where they have developed on or both of the aero packages to such an extent that the car inadvertently relies on very precise conditions (i.e. temperature...) to achieve maximum performance. If nothing else I would be confident that Audi will now know what to do at Magny Cours to get back on track.

You're right not to forget the role Porsche has (excellently) played in this by forcing Audi's hand. It seems clear that Audi feels the need to go hard on the aero to the point of having damn-near a new kit for each track to make sure they're on pace or even ahead of the 919.

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Nice posts, chernaudi, which go some way to answering some of my musings. Perhaps I over-egged the point about how different Audi's various packages are.

But going back to J Jay's "too many cooks" quip, I still think there's potential danger in Audi not really knowing what their best package is. I've never seen a team re-work a car quite to that extent from race to race in one season - in any category. Ever F1 teams, with far larger budgets, don't change their aero set-ups as often or as dramatically from Grand Prix to Grand Prix quite like Audi has this season.

Who knows, it might pay off - we still have half the season left, and Audi might use the Magny Cours test to optimise the set-up of the R18 for each track. I don't know whether the FRIC suspension makes the R18 more temperamental than its rivals, but it seems rather strange that Audi go through all these different aero configurations from circuit to circuit and still end up around the same sort of performance window as the 919, which changes far less from race to race - maybe that's a car running at 4MJ needs to keep up with a car running at 8MJ?

I agree with you, I think they are changing the car and the aero continuously because they cannot challenge what perhaps is the biggest disadvantage, the TDI engine weight and the flywheel.

[chernaudi]

Biggest issue Audi had at Nurburgring is front tire temps being too low. IMO, that sounds sort of like a front downforce issue, considering that as I mentioned Audi did run a modified tail during the test days and the race weekend with no discernible changes to the front of the car.

IMO, it almost sounds/feels like that Audi have something coming up for the rest of the season (possibly to get a jump on 2016 as well), and they ran what they had at the Nurburgring round as an interim measure until they can get their new stuff ready.

[Starfish Primer]

And why they were so slow in the pitstops compared to Porsche? Has Porsche found a trick ?

[TF110]

Its not unheard of for Audi to lose a race or two. Maybe they just dont have everything in order or maybe, just maybe, Porsche is faster?

[chernaudi]

I think IMO that Audi hoped that what they tested at the Nurburgring would hold them over until the newer stuff in the pipeline was made available. Aside from the Nurburgring test, Audi haven't really done much testing until this weekend. And I don't think that it's simply coincidence that Audi picked up the Magny Cours test that was originally supposed to be a Toyota test on a simple whim. IMO, they're up to something and they took the opportunity when it presented itself to test out something/somethings.

BTW, probably a stupid question, but any news, info or thoughts yet from the test?

[Artur]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

I agree with you, I think they are changing the car and the aero continuously because they cannot challenge what perhaps is the biggest disadvantage, the TDI engine weight and the flywheel.

the Diesel engine is heavier but, inherently, better. Audi's real huge disadvantage is the 4 vs 8 MJ. The extra power from the recovered energy is used in crucial, even though short, moments.

If the energy is released on, say, 15s, then you have Porsche releasing additional 715HP together with it's ICE's power. Audi's having only ~360HP to release is a MASSIVE disadvantage.

Tbh, it's quite unbelievable that Audi is pretty much on Porsche's pace considering such huge handicap. Imagine Audi having those 360HP extra to exit from slow corners and put you back to high speed?!

I'm very confident that Audi will massively improve next year, once more, simply because of moving to an upper class. I can't say the same for Porsche because they already hit the ceiling on that(they'll need to gain on aero, now).

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

And why they were so slow in the pitstops compared to Porsche? Has Porsche found a trick ?

Possibly, but looking at the final few Audi stops they did look a bit rattled and a bit more mistake-prone in the pits.

[chernaudi]

Biggest deal is actually the refueling rig restrictor. At LM, that could be partially explained by the Porsche guys short pitting. But when you consider that Audi and Porsche were running virtually identical stint lengths at Nurburgring, that's a big difference.

And I'm surprised that there's still no new news about the Magny Cours test--either security is a big deal or it's just that the track is in the middle of nowhere.

[chernaudi]

About the Magny Cours test, there's an error I must point out.

I missed the dates by a couple of days. The test is supposed to be Tuesday Sept. 8-Thursday Sept. 10. So it's not this weekend, but will be in a couple of days from now (per the Motorsport Total article about Toyota ceasing development on their 2015 car and that Audi have taken over that test now).

Magny Cours' circuits website also points out that Sept 8-10 are booked for a private test:

http://www.circuitmagnycours.com/gp-...0_lang_en.html

[chernaudi]

Having thought about it, wouldn't Magny Cours be a good place to test general purpose stuff for the WEC's non-LM races, based on the track layout?

[Adam43]

IIRC in F1 (sorry for mentioning that series) Magny Cours was often thought an unrepresentative track. Although I think that was often down to the surface rather than configuration?

[chernaudi]

I'm thinking that Audi may've picked this track to test because it's similar overall in characteristics to many of the WEC tracks. Especially outside of Silverstone, Spa and LM.

And as far as Audi bringing different or different modifications of bodywork to each race so far this year, we have to remember that Porsche has almost done the same (higher downforce LM package for Silverstone and Spa, the actual LM package at LM, and a high downforce sprint package at Nurburgring).

I think that Audi at Magny Cours might be testing a general purpose package that has a mix of attributes from the sprint and LM packages.

And if I'm honest, the only place we might see the Audi and Porsche LM-inspired packages come back is maybe Fuji with the almost mile long front straight. But I kinda doubt that--both might just as well (and IMO are just as likely) to run their post LM sprint packages with downforce trimmed off of them.

Of course, we have to wait for photos to come out from the Magny Cours test, but that might be a big ask since this is a private test (not that that's stopped people in the past) and the relative remoteness of the track.

[chernaudi]

There's supposed to be some stuff going on the club circuit adjacent to the GP track during all three days of the Audi GP circuit test, so hopefully some "witness" testimony will come out, along with photos or videos.

We can be hopeful about that, but at the same time we have to wait for details, if any, to come out, since the test is supposed to start tomorrow eastern US time (it's already very early Tuesday morning in France as this is being typed).

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Adam43

IIRC in F1 (sorry for mentioning that series) Magny Cours was often thought an unrepresentative track. Although I think that was often down to the surface rather than configuration?

Traditionally Magny Cours was one of the few definitively high downforce tracks alongside the Hungaroring and Monaco but that distinction has faded away in recent years. The major difference between it and the remaing part of the WEC calendar is that all these new F1 tracks have two or three very long straights preceded by a low speed corner while Magny Cours' one high speed straight is led onto by a very long, very high speed corner so it takes a significant part of the straight for a low downforce configuration to even get out of the hole it starts the straight in let alone get any kind of advantage.

But lap times aren't the goal of testing and it has a decently comparable corner variety considering Tilke track's tendency for hairpins, one extremely long corner and one or two high speed esses somewhere.

[chernaudi]

Any news of the test from day one? Only thing I've found online is a twitter message confirming that Audi are at Magny Cours.

[Akrapovic]

Magny Cours has traditionally been a difficult circuit to test at because the tarmac is so smooth that suspension settings don't transfer over very well. Ligier always had problems setting up cars for other circuits because they did so much testing at the pool table smooth Magny Cours.

[chernaudi]

If that all is true, then Audi are probably testing stuff that's aero related.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Magny Cours has traditionally been a difficult circuit to test at because the tarmac is so smooth that suspension settings don't transfer over very well. Ligier always had problems setting up cars for other circuits because they did so much testing at the pool table smooth Magny Cours.

That makes magny cours fantastic for correlating a wind tunnel model. Billiard table smooth means well known ride heights all around the track.