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16 Jun 2010, 05:41 (Ref:2712969) | #876 | ||
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Based on everything I have heard more boredom is ahead cause that is what's on the table. They are going to miss the boat I believe. These guys are clueless on how to present an exciting product. This is a clan that only recently acknowledged that junior formula series were REALLY the developmental series not USAC. Everyone else has known that for decades but the hulmangeorges only just came to that realization. Out of touch. I don't believe indycar, with the few hundred thousand casual fans that exist, has many out there under 35 that really care anymore or even know about it. None of these guys are household names anymore. Another few more years of malaise and dithering and that will be all she wrote. |
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Wolverines! |
16 Jun 2010, 06:25 (Ref:2712979) | #877 | ||
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You've convinced me, Star. Cartoons really are the best way to get the point across:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4...st_published=1 |
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16 Jun 2010, 08:15 (Ref:2713020) | #878 | |||
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Everybody would like to drive R&R , Porsche or Ferrari, but most don't: wonder why? |
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You got to learn how to fall, before you learn to fly P.Simon |
16 Jun 2010, 13:15 (Ref:2713156) | #879 | |||
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Finally... One American Open Wheel Series! |
16 Jun 2010, 14:03 (Ref:2713181) | #880 | ||
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Sure, if Mazda's going to back it, and AER can supply the minimum number of teams mandated by the IRL with a competitively priced product. Who's running those now, beside Dyson and Interscope?
The numbers that Pruett and Miller printed can't be accurate. Delta says that's a $150K engine. Then all it will take is enough teams to sign the lease and gamble it will be a fair match in performance and reliability to the Honda. And be able to afford to modify or buy the conversion bits for their new chassis, which will most likely be built for a stressed V6 install. |
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16 Jun 2010, 16:26 (Ref:2713247) | #881 | ||
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The cost is one issue, but you also have to consider the revenue. For many years manufacturers were spending $100-$200 million a year on CART and the irl. How much is spent now? Honda charges teams a million bucks for an old nail engine and buys some race tickets for it's employees. Whoop te do. Why do people fear letting in multiple chassis, engines and tire companies? This is supposed to be competitive sport. |
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Wolverines! |
16 Jun 2010, 16:38 (Ref:2713250) | #882 | ||
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Pinnacle? There's a new deal in town, bub.
It's spelled pinochle now. |
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16 Jun 2010, 22:15 (Ref:2713414) | #883 | ||
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pinnochio? 'cept it grows sorta pointy like a IRL nose
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16 Jun 2010, 22:43 (Ref:2713428) | #884 | ||
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16 Jun 2010, 23:13 (Ref:2713436) | #885 | ||||||
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For the remaining teams on the grid, their teams are not worth a whole lot if no one can afford to buy them. Quote:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/y...in-Europe.html Quote:
Last edited by Flyin Ryan; 16 Jun 2010 at 23:19. |
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16 Jun 2010, 23:24 (Ref:2713442) | #886 | |||||
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And then there are tons of engines out there. They greatly curtailed the number of available engine builders by going with a turbocharger. And if they want to democratize the engine, they should make it so private non-carmaker engine builders are allowed without a badge, which we don't know yet. Quote:
I always roll my eyes about the "it's the technology that draws the fans" argument. Explain why NASCAR became huge beginning in the late '80s and peaking in early '00s if that's the case, and a lot of people that started watching NASCAR in that time were Indycar fans in the '80s. John Andretti had a great quote in the Indianapolis Star on Race Day: "if you get a single person more to watch a race by changing the car, you've performed a miracle". Quote:
Here is the Hoosier Hundred Entry List for the USAC Silver Crown Series the Friday before the 500 this year. This is the greatest evidence I can provide for anyone that wants multiple constructors and multiple engines that tubeframes and non-turbocharged engines of some displacement are the way to go. And it's not like this is a one-race deal, this is true for all USAC national events across three national series. You can take the period mountainstar considers the golden era of Indycar racing and different cars and engines and it wouldn't even come close to approaching what you see below. http://www.hoosierhundred.com/ Constructor Beast - 20 Eagle - 1 Maxim - 3 F5 - 2 Stanton - 1 DRC - 2 GRP - 1 J & J - 2 Drinan - 2 Engine Foxco - 1 Foxco Chevy - 2 Ford - 1 Kistler Chevy - 3 Mopar - 2 Dodge - 1 Gaerte - 2 Toyota - 5 Chevy - 10 Speedway Mopar - 1 Hampshire - 1 Dynotec - 2 Roush-Yates Ford - 1 (manufacturers combined: Ford - 2, Dynotec - 1, Hampshire - 1, Dodge/Mopar - 4, Chevy - 15, Foxco - 1, Toyota - 5, Gaerte - 2) Last edited by Flyin Ryan; 16 Jun 2010 at 23:53. |
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17 Jun 2010, 00:52 (Ref:2713473) | #887 | ||
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A tube frame IndyCar. Ok.
"Q. Brian, you said there were some things about the rules you've not decided yet. What about like cost, lease to own? Where are you with a couple of those things? Independent builders?" "BRIAN BARNHART: We're going to probably stay in the same area that we are now and the engines will continue to be leased. The biggest reason for that, certainly anticipating manufacturer competition, is the protection of intellectual property." Including leases, rebuilds and replacements, Honda is grossing far above $25M, probably closer to $30M. They haven't had major development or manufacturing costs to cover since 2006. Even after sponsoring three races and all of their operating costs, they have to be clearing something. It's a question of how many millions, and how much profit they might trim to support thr IRL. If a competitor is allowed to independantly supply teams, without kicking back major subsidies to the IRL by paying badging rights or sponsoring races, how does that work for Honda? It doesn't. The independant can re-invest his profits in R&D work, underbid Honda for the lease cost, grab more market share, and hack Honda off. Maybe kick their a$$, too. The day the IRL caved to Honda again, by announcing the spec to fit Honda's schedule and requirements, they cemented their continuing relationship with the Series partner. Any other competitor will have to enter with a similar level of commitment. At which point, according to Berkman of HPD, the price goes up. And with the IRL declaring that the lease cost will be mandated, there will be no price incentive to teams or significant reduction from today's cost, whether they sign with Honda or the phantom competitor. "And if they want to democratize the engine, they should make it so private non-carmaker engine builders are allowed without a badge, which we don't know yet." That's what they should have done, and could have done, a long time ago. And it isn't going to happen now, either. Last edited by JagtechOhio; 17 Jun 2010 at 00:58. |
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17 Jun 2010, 01:12 (Ref:2713475) | #888 | ||||||
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If Honda didn't get what they want, for all we know they could pull out entirely and then where would the IRL stand? It'd be 2005 all over again as they'd have to go kiss another manufacturer's ring to guarantee supply and that company would have all the leverage. Quote:
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Not to mention certain teams on the grid due to their history would very much rather have Honda acquiesced instead of told Honda being rejected on what they wanted. If multiple carmakers, your certain Honda teams that'd be given money kickbacks would be Andretti, de Ferran due to his ties to Honda in ALMS (don't believe de Ferran didn't vouch for what Honda wanted in those ICONIC meetings either or kept from Honda what went on), Honda would probably take care of Rahal and he'd go back to full-time, probably Penske since he's owns a bunch of Honda dealerships. It's not good business to **** off a third of your participants. I don't believe IRL fully wanted to go with this spec and that's why they waited so long to announce it from when we knew discussions first went on. I think the global recession knocked out a good number of maybes and they were stuck kissing Honda's ring hoping maybe a couple others will come along later. It's a bad time in the world for all top-class auto racing. Last edited by Flyin Ryan; 17 Jun 2010 at 01:37. |
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17 Jun 2010, 01:35 (Ref:2713478) | #889 | ||
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so where would it go wrong if they had independent engine builders build engines from off the shelf components? sorry an EFI 6 or 7 liter V8 or V10 or DOCH 6 built at a Gasoline Alley race shop vs. a manufacturer branded engine bound by rules like a 2.4 L turbo 6.
that is the spirit of Indy. and stick it in any thing with open wheels that passes a safety test. big whoop- any one and everyone will go race and see. if its too expensive it will sort itself out. as sad as IRL has been- it never has gone away it survives through bad and good decisions, it split into two ans came together again to still go on. what don't the Indy Big wigs get? just let people race and sanction it - i know we worry about Honda or VW paying a shop to build engines or reverse brand their technology- well seal the freaking engine for 3 races and have a claimer rule and spec on materials it can't be hard and it wold be glorious oh wait Can-am with open wheels sorry i 'm not so original |
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SuperTrucks rule- end of story. Listen to my ramblings! Follow my twitter @davidAET I am shameless ... |
17 Jun 2010, 03:46 (Ref:2713494) | #890 | |||||
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That's Newton's third law of physics.
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So you read the Daily Telegraph? |
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"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
17 Jun 2010, 07:05 (Ref:2713533) | #891 | ||
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OK Ryan, read your post and tell me where it is you still think that "we don't know yet" about independent engine builders.
As it pertains to the current IRL specs and financial state, that is. Tube frame cars, Honda F1 and USAC history notwithstanding. |
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17 Jun 2010, 07:19 (Ref:2713544) | #892 | |||||
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Now companies at any level (manufacturers, sponsors etc) have to face redundancies all over the world, and budgets for racing have logically been shrinked. is it so difficult to understand? Quote:
So why most people insist on GM or Renault? And why do many people eat McDonald's hamburgs instead of attending 3-Michelin star reastaurants? Nobody say the single-make approach is the best ever; but it's the only currently affordable |
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You got to learn how to fall, before you learn to fly P.Simon |
17 Jun 2010, 08:24 (Ref:2713582) | #893 | ||
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climb, i don't think Star is any less of a pragmatist than you are. He experienced the results of bad decision making that has helped lead to the environment we're in today.
You look at today, and realize that the IRL is taking the only recourse that they see as available and viable. I look at their choices and don't understand why they are being implemented in ways that produce so little gain. The direction continues to be based on public announcements that lead nowhere, and optimistic projections that look beyond the facts on the ground. The only immediacy created is in the talk: no remedial action has been taken on any level, and most of the hopeful seeds planted will bear little fruit. I think that makes all three of us pragmatists.It's the guys running the show that I have my doubts about. |
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17 Jun 2010, 12:11 (Ref:2713673) | #894 | |||
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It applies to a lot of other things too.
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17 Jun 2010, 13:29 (Ref:2713704) | #895 | |||
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You got to learn how to fall, before you learn to fly P.Simon |
17 Jun 2010, 13:38 (Ref:2713710) | #896 | ||
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My apology for wording it poorly, perhaps if I stated that they have reached the same inevitable conclusion you describe, it would have made more sense.
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17 Jun 2010, 22:39 (Ref:2714021) | #897 | |||
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Based on what proof? What series for ten years has allowed open competition where the market determines prices verses some god wannabe forcing everyone into the same whole. It has become a chicken-little scare game of --WE CAN't DO THAT. WHY? BECAUSE! This system puts money in only certain peoples pockets and they do not want it to change, no matter how badly it screws things up. They will milk it till the cow is dry and then walk away. |
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17 Jun 2010, 23:09 (Ref:2714034) | #898 | |
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Spec all the pieces you want to be standard and then let a range of people manufacture them.
I like the idea of tube chassis, but the safety would probably be severely compromised. Would it be feasible to maufacture a carbon survival capsule and then bolt all the rest onto it or drop it into a space frame? I personally don't like one make series as they just become an expensive clube! As per Bob Riebe's post above. |
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18 Jun 2010, 00:45 (Ref:2714071) | #899 | |||
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But not necessarily covered her, though possibly on the Parc Fermé section here on 10-Tenths
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It does have good sports journalism; I used to play Rugby, #6. I must say I've really enjoyed this debate with you; civilized, good arguments on both sides. Here's to the future of IndyCar racing; something we both are passionate about. |
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"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
18 Jun 2010, 01:51 (Ref:2714088) | #900 | ||
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Because 200 mph in an open-wheeled, tube frame car is SUCH a great idea. The safety cell has to be a carbon fiber monocoque. It saves lives. |
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