ALMS 2012 Discussion

[Breitling24]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

I hope his next trick is better than this one.

From Guyot.com

Chateau Elan Muscadine

Top 10 Thanksgiving Wines

SWEET

Chateau Elan
Muscadine

Reminiscent of a French country estate, Chateau Elan Winery and Resort, near [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]Atlanta[/COLOR][/COLOR], was founded by pharmaceutical tycoons Donald and Nancy Panoz. On a visit to their research lab in Gainesville, they became fascinated by Georgia's indigenous Muscadine grapes and decided to cultivate their own. Like their fruit-infused Muscadine blends, this pure Muscadine wine is sweet and foxy.

Rating: 13/20
Price: $11

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Breitling24

From Guyot.com

Chateau Elan Muscadine

Well, clearly the greatest trick ever pulled by Panoz was this. I don't think it is even questionable! I wonder if IMSA uses that video to teach teams what happens if they try to cheat.

[skycafe]

bring on Lucy and Ethel. I sometimes wonder if that is the only hope.

As much as I don't want to say this, I honestly think they should go GT series, add the GT3 cars and then some other open door to allow other cars to fit in the mix. I still think a show like that needs a GT1 for the wow factor, but that doesn't seem possibly given the economic times. GT2 with GT3 addition would add some cool cars to the mix, seemingly give a pretty full grid, allow the manufactures of those cars more exposure since they are a 'bigger' part of the show so hopefully they help fund the whole thing.

Ain't gonna happen I know, because you have to cater to the rag tag handful of protos and this Delta thing, and of course the GT show gets overshadowed at Sebring and maybe oversubscribed too. H*@@, big mess, not sure anything is going to work out. It is almost like it is going to die on the vine except for the plum of Sebring, and those folks in Daytona probably have a game plan if the rumored late season WEC race at the tri oval come to fruition.

Groan......

[AGD]

Originally Posted by skycafe

It is almost like it is going to die on the vine except for the plum of Sebring, and those folks in Daytona probably have a game plan if the rumored late season WEC race at the tri oval come to fruition.

Groan......

Groan is right! I'm still cheesed about the whole mess. As far as the NASCAR-FIA-ACO love triangle, I'm wondering if it will take a different direction than what has been speculated about so far. I'm thinking that it may not be Daytona, but it'll be something far more mischievous on the behalf of the Frances (family France). Considering their growing road racing profile (DTM and perhaps the FIA WEC), could it be possible that NASCAR will bully neutral tracks like Road America and Laguna Seca into signing exclusivity contracts that would prohibit the ALMS/IMSA from racing at some of those circuits?

Furthermore, there are a lot of questions about the future of Sebring. There are a lot of questions about 2013 obviously, but some fans seem cynical enough to think that the ACO will still force ALMS teams to adopt their rules instead of what has already been announced. It's a cynical thought, but I guess I can't blame anyone for thinking that way given everything that has happened so far these past few weeks. Regardless of the ACO's intentions, if the ALMS wants to give their runners pretty favorable rules, could they possibly announce the Sebring rule package right now? If they allow for restrictor and/or weight breaks now, the ACO may retaliate by changing their regs or may pull support for the race. Again, those thoughts don't see too far fetched at the moment. So will the ALMS/IMSA have to pull a surprise attack by way of announcing the rules (to everyone but the ALMS teams at least) at the last moment? They may have no choice but to do that, but I think there are at least a few ALMS fans who are waiting to see what the regulations are before decisions are made about buying tickets and stuff for Sebring and other races.

But, yeah, what a sad state of affairs. I'd really like to get behind the ALMS and support the series hard given the feces that has been hurled at them by the ACO/FIA, but the ALMS is so screwy that it is hard to do that. I guess I know what Champ Car fans felt like down towards the end of that series' existence. DeltaschWing? Oh please. That's the answer? Well, at least there is always the Unlimited Racing Championship. Or whatever it is called. Err, maybe not. Has anyone even brought one of those? Anyway, unlimited spec car racing to go along with all the other IMSA spec cars. Ugh. Groan. Thank goodness for VHS and video games I guess.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by AGD

Groan is right! I'm still cheesed about the whole mess. As far as the NASCAR-FIA-ACO love triangle, I'm wondering if it will take a different direction than what has been speculated about so far. I'm thinking that it may not be Daytona, but it'll be something far more mischievous on the behalf of the Frances (family France). Considering their growing road racing profile (DTM and perhaps the FIA WEC), could it be possible that NASCAR will bully neutral tracks like Road America and Laguna Seca into signing exclusivity contracts that would prohibit the ALMS/IMSA from racing at some of those circuits?

Was a time when Daytona, Sebring and Watkins Glen were on the World Championship of Makes Calendar. ISC now controls two of those courses. As to the other traditional circuits, Road America, Laguna, both have to be suffering with the decline of professional road racing in the US. We have gone from having big weekends of Can-Am, F5000, Trans-Am, the growing IMSA series (back then), CART. Of course, that was the time when Nascar could really be called a regional series with the vast majority of races in the south, and before the media explosion of coverage they got. All has changed with that-series imploded and Nascar gained strength. To most people Nascar is the only racing, all the rest is odd looking cars and foreign drivers and nobody is talking about it at the water cooler on Monday. I would guess Nascar could pull a good crowd at Road America and also Laguna Seca. If not the big cars, then whatever the Busch type cars are called now.

[JAG]

Re.Sebring regs, it's the first race of the season, Muscle Milk and Dyson will have new 2012 cars, so it's unlikely they'll run to anything but ACO regs. Last year the Aston was grandfathered and the Dyson Lola ran to an ALMS specific hybrid of P1/P2 regs.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

Dyson will have new 2012 cars,

They will? Did I miss an announcement?

[JAG]

Dagys mentioned it on his chat, some commitment from the team, they either have confidence in the future of ALMS P1 or have wider plans.

John Dagys:
But Dyson will be getting new cars too.. Shiny new B12/60s with the big honkin shark fin too!

John Dagys:
Correct, Dyson used P2 tires for last 2 years. Not sure what they would do for wide P1s like Rebellions..

John Dagys:
Nothing yet on 3rd car. I think it's getting a bit late. I know Mazda has yet to officially commit to Dyson program yet, should know more on that in next few days

John Dagys:
Yep. Dyson's will be full 2012 spec. Rebellions were modified 2011 spec.

[MitchZ06]

Considering the B12/60 is a new build of the current Rebellion Lola (or so I've been lead to believe) they should look a hell of alot better than the Lola chassis they're using at the moment.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by skycafe

Was a time when Daytona, Sebring and Watkins Glen were on the World Championship of Makes Calendar. ISC now controls two of those courses. As to the other traditional circuits, Road America, Laguna, both have to be suffering with the decline of professional road racing in the US. We have gone from having big weekends of Can-Am, F5000, Trans-Am, the growing IMSA series (back then), CART. Of course, that was the time when Nascar could really be called a regional series with the vast majority of races in the south, and before the media explosion of coverage they got. All has changed with that-series imploded and Nascar gained strength. To most people Nascar is the only racing, all the rest is odd looking cars and foreign drivers and nobody is talking about it at the water cooler on Monday. I would guess Nascar could pull a good crowd at Road America and also Laguna Seca. If not the big cars, then whatever the Busch type cars are called now.

Busch series currently races at Road America.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Matt

Busch series currently races at Road America.

I imagine well attended?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by skycafe

Was a time when Daytona, Sebring and Watkins Glen were on the World Championship of Makes Calendar. ISC now controls two of those courses. As to the other traditional circuits, Road America, Laguna, both have to be suffering with the decline of professional road racing in the US. We have gone from having big weekends of Can-Am, F5000, Trans-Am, the growing IMSA series (back then), CART. Of course, that was the time when Nascar could really be called a regional series with the vast majority of races in the south, and before the media explosion of coverage they got. All has changed with that-series imploded and Nascar gained strength. To most people Nascar is the only racing, all the rest is odd looking cars and foreign drivers and nobody is talking about it at the water cooler on Monday. I would guess Nascar could pull a good crowd at Road America and also Laguna Seca. If not the big cars, then whatever the Busch type cars are called now.

Americans know of other racing. The Indy 500 still gets ratings similar to regular Winston Cup races. Nobody cares about the IRL the other 51 weeks of the year and other series just have their fanbases. Some of those bases are greater than others.

An idea that I would like to dismiss is that NASCAR exploded after Indycar race imploded in 1996. I don't know if you were implying that, but either way, such thoughts really underestimate the power of NASCAR. If you go back and look at TV ratings, NASCAR had probably beaten or at least matched regular Indycar races perhaps as early as 1990. It might have been even earlier than that actually. Indycar had big events that got big ratings (Indy obviously as is the case today and the Michigan 500), but the ratings for regular events were not so great. They were a lot better than they are today, but they were paltry even compared to regular NASCAR races today.

What propelled NASCAR to new heights decades ago was them doing what they had to do instead of worrying what AAA, USAC, and CART were doing. Do you think NASCAR worried about running races on the same dates and times as Indycar back when Indycar was legitimately bigger? No, not at all. They would schedule around others if it made sense to do so, but sometimes they did what they had to do. They realized their audience was somewhat different from the Indycar audience and they wanted to see something different. That's what makes this WEC idea that they can't possibly run on the same day as F1 or it will signal the apocalypse so maddening.

Originally Posted by skycafe

I imagine well attended?

I don't know, but I'm guessing the answer is yes. That's why I think that NASCAR will strong arm a track like Road America into an exclusive contract. Maybe there would be a legal issue if they did that, but NASCAR has a team of lawyers ready to deal with such specific things.

Originally Posted by JAG

Re.Sebring regs, it's the first race of the season, Muscle Milk and Dyson will have new 2012 cars, so it's unlikely they'll run to anything but ACO regs. Last year the Aston was grandfathered and the Dyson Lola ran to an ALMS specific hybrid of P1/P2 regs.

As far as Dyson having "new" cars, I'm guessing the word "new" refers to their specification and not them being freshly poured tubs. Maybe they will have 1 new car if they run 3 cars, but I don't know.

Anyway, just because they are running a new specification that is built around ACO regs does not mean they have to run those cars to ACO regs. LMP1s are running ballast, right? So just take some of that ballast off and open up the restrictors some (or a lot). That's perfectly do-able and IMSA has given teams restrictor and weight breaks on their cars beyond ACO spec so it's not like we're talking about something impossible or unprecedented. All they have to do now is run those different rules against ACO spec cars. It would be great, but as I said earlier, nobody knows whether it will actually happen or not even if the ALMS says that it is a possibility.

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Considering the B12/60 is a new build of the current Rebellion Lola (or so I've been lead to believe) they should look a hell of alot better than the Lola chassis they're using at the moment.

The Rebellions looked pretty good, but the older "skinny tire" Lola does not look bad either. Plus, if they run to full B12/60 spec, I guess they'll have the Big Honkin' Fin and Big Honkin' Holes. Who knows if either of those will actually be mandated by IMSA and they will certainly be ugly compared to what Dyson and even Rebellion ran in 2011. The Big Honkin' Fin did not look good on the Level 5 Lola coupe for sure.

[gregtummer]

I can't imagine the Frances letting WEC run Daytona.

Even after Double Neutered Cars (2009, 2011) and Triple Neutered Cars for Audi and Peugeot (7% reduction in 2012), Big Honkin Fins and Big Honkin Holes, WEC will still blow Grand Sham out of the water.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I can't imagine the Frances letting WEC run Daytona.

Even after Double Neutered Cars (2009, 2011) and Triple Neutered Cars for Audi and Peugeot (7% reduction in 2012), Big Honkin Fins and Big Honkin Holes, WEC will still blow Grand Sham out of the water.

Daytona or not, you can be assured that the Frances will try to do whatever they can to kill off the ALMS/IMSA. If that means snuggling with the FIA/WEC for a couple of years and then pulling the rug from under the WEC, well, so be it. They say that politics makes for strange bedfellows, well, this might be the perfect example at least for a temporary basis. The FIA and NASCAR both bring their hammers to work. It's the perfect marriage of scoundrels.

[gregtummer]

So the ACO is going to start a war with ALMS so they can get Sebring to themselves?

That doesn't seem to pass a cost-benefit analysis.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

So the ACO is going to start a war with ALMS so they can get Sebring to themselves?

That doesn't seem to pass a cost-benefit analysis.

If we judge the situation on the basis of the Petit/Bahrain situation, the ACO seems to have very little in terms of good long-term strategic planning.

But, anyway, Panoz does not have to let the WEC race at Sebring if he does not want to. If the ALMS becomes too much of a lead balloon, Panoz may have no choice but to sell Sebring or make a deal with the WEC/NASCAR/whoever. So we'll see. I think the ACO must be preparing to race in North America in 2013 at some place besides Sebring. That might be Daytona, Watkins Glen, or some other NASCAR owned or aided circuit.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by AGD

An idea that I would like to dismiss is that NASCAR exploded after Indycar race imploded in 1996. I don't know if you were implying that, but either way, such thoughts really underestimate the power of NASCAR.
What propelled NASCAR to new heights decades ago was them doing what they had to do instead of worrying what AAA, USAC, and CART were doing. Do you think NASCAR worried about running races on the same dates and times as Indycar back when Indycar was legitimately bigger? No, not at all. They would schedule around others if it made sense to do so, but sometimes they did what they had to do. They realized their audience was somewhat different from the Indycar audience and they wanted to see something different
.

No, did not really mean to imply that Nascar's growth was after the Indycar weirdness. In ways I really admire the France's as much as I don't. You have to hand it to them, their is a consistent vision there and a constant focus on the product and the image. They seem to just go from strength to strength and they did it. Sensational promotion. The other series in the States managed to NOT do that and shot themselves in the foot (and elsewhere ).

The Frances were helped J. Bishop start IMSA and helped foster it's growth. It had a great run there for a good period of time.

What ticks me off, mostly because I am bad at accepting it, is that I don't like the iron fist spec sort of racing, and that means I like racing that runs in cycles, or implodes after a great run.

What they will do with WEC I don't know, earlier versions of it helped to promote Daytona around the world. I live basically between Daytona and Sebring, and grew up in the period when world attention was focused on those two tracks in Florida, when exotic teams, cars and drivers came to run here.

So, my interest will be in what the Frances are going to do. Fall WEC race at DIS will probably not be the only move, but they can't shift it to February and expect the GrandAm to survive. I care little about GrandAm, but they are taken with it, and I don't see the 24 going WEC because that totals GrandAm, and you can't have GA run with WEC because that totals GA, and I guess I no longer believe that we can have a sustainable series in the States of WEC/ACO/ALMS cars. Which SUCKS, because attendance-wise ALMS wins over the GA model, and the ALMS show is much more appealing for a sportscar fan.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by skycafe

No, did not really mean to imply that Nascar's growth was after the Indycar weirdness. In ways I really admire the France's as much as I don't. You have to hand it to them, their is a consistent vision there and a constant focus on the product and the image. They seem to just go from strength to strength and they did it. Sensational promotion. The other series in the States managed to NOT do that and shot themselves in the foot (and elsewhere ).

The Frances were helped J. Bishop start IMSA and helped foster it's growth. It had a great run there for a good period of time.

What ticks me off, mostly because I am bad at accepting it, is that I don't like the iron fist spec sort of racing, and that means I like racing that runs in cycles, or implodes after a great run.

What they will do with WEC I don't know, earlier versions of it helped to promote Daytona around the world. I live basically between Daytona and Sebring, and grew up in the period when world attention was focused on those two tracks in Florida, when exotic teams, cars and drivers came to run here.

So, my interest will be in what the Frances are going to do. Fall WEC race at DIS will probably not be the only move, but they can't shift it to February and expect the GrandAm to survive. I care little about GrandAm, but they are taken with it, and I don't see the 24 going WEC because that totals GrandAm, and you can't have GA run with WEC because that totals GA, and I guess I no longer believe that we can have a sustainable series in the States of WEC/ACO/ALMS cars. Which SUCKS, because attendance-wise ALMS wins over the GA model, and the ALMS show is much more appealing for a sportscar fan.

Same dynamic with the 6 Hours of Watkins Glen. The Sham runs that race and then run a shorter race later on the short circuit.

WEC will want a 6 hour race and to give them that race at Watkins Glen while the Sham gets the other race screws over the Sham and the Frances big time.

[AGD]

I cannot imagine that the WEC race would replace a Grand-Am event especially if it is at an ISC track. The whole purpose of NASCAR killing off the ALMS is to help support Grand-Am. I guess that's why something like a Fall Daytona race would work. Maybe a fall race on the Homestead roval would work too? I know they have NASCAR there during the fall, but perhaps something could be worked out.

[gregtummer]

If WEC wants to screw ALMS, just run a 6 Hour event at Road America.

That way you don't have to worry about playing politics with the Frances and worry about them screwing you over if ALMS dies in the future.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

If WEC wants to screw ALMS, just run a 6 Hour event at Road America.

That way you don't have to worry about playing politics with the Frances and worry about them screwing you over if ALMS dies in the future.

Something like that is a possibility too. Canada and/or Mexico could be options as well. Peugeot operates in Mexico. Or Laguna. I believe the WTCC is going there in 2012. I think a race at Laguna would probably have the least impact on the ALMS amongst options where the ALMS already operates given that A) it's on the west coast and thus far away from the ALMS' two biggest events and B) nobody really goes to the ALMS Laguna race so impact on ticket sales may be minimal.

Either way, the ALMS needs to adjust their regulations so that fans considering whether to attend a WEC race or an ALMS race will choose the latter. I think there is an opportunity to for the ALMS to make their case at Sebring this year, but we'll have to see if they stand up for themselves. The feeling is that they won't, but like I said earlier, they may have no choice but to wait for the last second to announce their regulations if they are divergent so that the WEC does not protest out of Sebring or so that they don't create retaliatory regulations for Sebring.

[Matt]

WTCC will be running Infineon, another good track for sports cars imo.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Matt

WTCC will be running Infineon, another good track for sports cars imo.

Oops. Well, at least I had the right market. But, yeah, I wish the ALMS could/would revisit Sears Point.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by AGD

the ACO seems to have very little in terms of good long-term strategic planning.
.

Honestly, who does? F1 does and doesn't. They have so much power they can shrug off blunders. Nascar does for the same reason. The ACO does with LeMans, but we will see if it can be extended beyond that track.

OH, and don't put ACO cars on Homestead, that is a joke of a road course

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Matt

WTCC will be running Infineon, another good track for sports cars imo.

Plus Infineon is supposed to be getting a driver influenced makeover, I didn't see when, this off-season or next but thought IRL drivers had talked about it with Racer magazine. The long circuit isn't too bad a track to run on in FM4.