History of a Lola T492 Sports 2000 chassis?

[Clive Brown]

The Humberstone body may well be in one piece, but the mould certainly isn't; as it has re-entrant curves at both front and rear, how on earth could one get the body out of the mould otherwise?

As shown in your pictures, the body has already been chopped to fit on top of the extended side sponsons between the wheels. Look back to the pictures of the Demon Doctor's KG to see just what I mean!

Regards

Clive

[911thillclimber]

[Clive Brown]

Note the Hart 420R nestling in the back of the chassis, bolted to an FT200. Doncha wish.... ?

[911thillclimber]

Yes indeed i do!
What a great combo.
I seem to remember Tony saying the car came to them with it in, but I doubt Dennis Humphries 'Group 6' T 492 would be so equiped?

Prob the engine from the Dickinson Skoda/Lola t 490 HU 6
The pesky chassis plate is clear in the shot on the N/S tub side pod.

[911thillclimber]

Tut, tut, double post...

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by 911thillclimber

Prob the engine from the Dickinson Skoda/Lola t 490 HU 6

Yep, those are the bits that were originally fitted in T490/HU6 in the ex-Dickinson Skoda. But did Messrs. Harman and Schneider strip out the wreck of the Dickinson Skoda and transfer it to the T492/HuXYZ tub, or had that already been done before they were commissioned to fit the KG bodywork to the car? If they didn't, then who did?

[911thillclimber]

Good question.
Alan H told me the parts from the crashed (at Lydden) T 490 skoda were transfered to the Humphries car. I presume this was by Tony/John as the comment was in the context of their re-build for him/Harry.

The tub was modified quite a bit more than is shown in the pics.

I believe Brian Davis had the car after Alan.
The crunched body on the car when Mike bought it was white, not pink, so maybe Brian had it painted White, his 'house' colour (from your comments on the other thread)
I recall Mike saying the car lost its engine while between Alan H and Mike, but the box stayed with the car.

Mike offered the car to me with a cossie 500 engine with turbo and the Hewland FT200.

I should have bought that package in hindsight, though the box would be shreadded by now.

[Clive Brown]

You need to talk to Tony Harman again! We know Little Al (and I don't mean Unser Jr.!) wrecked the ex-Dickinson Skoda at Lydden. We believe that the Humberstones then bought a T492 chassis from Dennis Humphries. We have pictures of Harman and Schneider fitting KG bodywork to a Hart-engined T492 chassis, but we don't know who transferred the parts salvaged from the wreck onto the 'new' chassis. If it wasn't H&S, who was it? We know that the car, now a pink Karmann Ghia, re-appeared at Brands some years later with some type of turdbo Ford motor in it. But who put it in? Was it H&S? If it was, it seems funny they didn't mention it to you, as it wouldn't have been a straightforward change from the 420R shown in the garage KG pics; intercoolers, larger radiators for oil and water, etc., etc., etc.

To summarise, there is a whole lot about which we are only guessing between the ex-TD Skoda at Lydden, and the pink KG at Brands.Furthermore, the two are a number of years apart; this was no winter rebuild!

[911thillclimber]

I emailed Tony last night about the pics and although he is here-n-there most time have had a reply.

I've asked him about the engine thing, the state of the Dennis tub etc.
I hope his memory is good!

Could be interesting, and you make a valid question.

Glad you are back!

[Tim Wilkinson]

June '85 - AH writes off Skoda at Lydden. In next Autosport, an advert with a Canterbury number is wanting a Lola tub or chassis.

Sept 5th '85 - Colin Pool is offering for sale a badly damaged t490/2, less engine and box.

Oct 24th '85 - Dennis Humphries has Lola t492 for sale. Advertised as Thundersports class B car, F3 wheels, long-range tank. "Immaculate".


I vaguely remember reading that AH was out of general circulation for a bit, not in a position to race.

[911thillclimber]

I think those are the facts tim.

I know the wheels are the Skoda 'Dickinson' wheels (Dymags at the front, 'cone' mags at the rear).
The car came to me with a spare set of wheels, and the 'normal spoke' Dymags are on the rear now. The cones are very corroded.

I'm not sure i would have call the Dennis tub immaculate.
The rear of the drivers side side pontoon has bee crumpled at some time and the steel rear bulkhead repaired, alloy sheet knocked out.

The car still has the big tank across 2/3 the width of the tub behind the seat, holds 6 gallons; alongside the tank has been a range of fire extinguisher brackets etc.

So far, there have been no pics of the pink Ghia other than the race Alan made and featured in Autosport and when Tony snapped it on the trailer.

Tony never saw it turn a wheel.

I imagine Brian Davis had the car when Alan stopped racing.
Alan was very brief on the phone when i called a few years ago.
Mike bought the car off Brian, i bought the car off mike.

It must have languished around somewhere (Brian's?) for several years.

The Lola HU 6 T 490 has not been registered on the Lola Heritage site except in my name before i knew all the real history.

I am following a VERY long shot on the chassis number at the moment.

[Clive Brown]

So how many Lola T492s ran in the Thundersports/ domestic sports car racing series? Can't have been that many....

[haggispeed]

Just thought I'd catch up with the story following 911's mail.
I'm pretty sure the car came to us (John & I) with the Hart engine and FT200 already fitted, can't remember if the roll cage was also done, at least that's how I remember it from the first time I saw it, unless John had already done a lot of work on it but I don't think so.
That engine configuration was how it left us on the trailer to test at Brands, I only saw it once after that to sort out a few snags. I do seem to remember John saying that Alan wanted to fit some turbo Ford unit to it but don't know who did that work. So my main job was working with John to panel it, fit the bodywork, wiring etc.
Such a shame to have never seen it on track. Hopefully next year I'll get a long to an event Graham to re-aquaint myself with the car that gave me the money to get my first race car !

[Clive Brown]

So Harman and Schneider didn't change the wrecked ex-Dickinson Skoda from HU6 onto the 'new' ex-Dennis Humphries T492 tub. Did the Humberstones do it themselves (unlikely), or was it someone else? John Sabourin? And who changed the car from the Hart 420R shown in the Harman/Schneider pictures to the Turdbo Ford set-up shown in the Nortysport pictures of the pink KG at Brands Hatch?

FWIW, I believe that Harman and Schneider did no more than put KG bodywork onto a T492 chassis with an existing Hart 420R/FT200 setup. What happened both before and after is still unknown.

[911thillclimber]

You must come down to Loton Park or pop up to Barbon Manor Tony, Shrewsbury or Kendal, both great hills, would v much like to meet you and buy you all the beers I owe you in my quest!

Every detail adds to the story and sometimes the mystery deepens.

Clive:
That question has been asked before,

Mid 80's, Group 6 Lola T492 with orange body and a Hart/FT, must be unique?

Nobody has heard of Dennis Humphries in the S2000 crew, and other than here, no idea where else to ask.

Google fails with Dennis's name etc, the Original Invisible Man.

Even if i found him, i can't expect him to remember a race car chassis number from 1985.(unless his memory rivals Clives or Driftwoods!)

However, it is only 7 years from when the car was new. If he knew who he bought it off etc i have the original sales sheets of the T 490/492 with the original purchasers listed against chassis number.....job done.

Thinking Group 6:

Is that the right term for 1985 ish?
Just read that Gr6 was late 60's/early 70's to include legends like the 917 Porsche etc, but in later 70's it was dropped to Group 5?

Would this car be raced in a Group typified by the 'Group 6' cars of old??

[Clive Brown]

I don't believe that the car ever raced as a Lola with the Hart/FT200. I do believe that the Humberstones had the bits from the wreck of HU6 fitted to what was essentially a T492 chassis,probably Pinto engined, that they had acquired from Dennis Humphries. That car, with Hart 420R and FT200, was given to H&S to convert into a KG. H&S did not install the Ford turdbo into the car, which made its first and only appearance at Brands Hatch. Clear enough...?

[911thillclimber]

I don't get the impression that Alan H was particularly a 'hands-on' mechanic type, so if you are right Clive, I wonder who did do the engine swop?
Alan told me that the donar car from Herne Bay was a T 492 and had an orange Lola body on it.
He added bits were transfered from the crashed T490 to the 492.

Could it be that the Lola 492 was re-engined from the 490, given to Tony and John to do the tub and body, then off to ANO for a re-engine to the turbo? I think he said the engine was an RS 200 engine.

Would Brian Davis be capable of doing such works?

Mike who bought the car from Brian said Brian had changed the brakes and such like, so could spanner a car ok.

He had always insisted to me the car i bought was a T 492 when I paid him, and the Ghia body was white.

Still a bit foggy out there on this one.

[wolfhound]

Group 6 cars were still active until 1982 when group C arrived, however there was a peroid where some group 6 cars were allowed to run with group C for one or two years. I think 1984 was the last year of international group 6 but they have been used in other championships?

[Tim Wilkinson]

I think Thundersports class B was for S2000-spec cars. A retirement home for those older models no longer competitive in the proper S2000 championship.

I did a bit of hunting for a likely car, but nothing obvious showed up in the year reviews, or the only results I could find online or in Autosport for the few years prior to '85. That's not to say this 492 wasn't there, just that I couldn't make any connections.

[Nordic]

Are all the Brands Hatch Racing School Lola Sports 2000's accounted for?

Given the close connection between Brands Hatch and Thundersports, could they have converted one of the school cars to Thundersport spec with a view to renting it out?

Its correct that sports 2000's were added to the field of some long distance international races to make up the numbers. thus a car converted to thunderports spec in the early 80's could have run in the BH flying tigers 1000k for example.

Also were the school cars maybe fitted with long range tanks anyway to avoid the need for refuelling every 20 or so laps?

There was also a few long distance race for sports 2000's. however the car would have had to conform to normal regs engine wise, but a long distance tank would have been needed.

There are various stepping stones to your car(s) history, if you can find out the time line of mods, then you can guess which series the car was intended for.

[Andy Clegg]

Was Group Six the 2.0 litre sports car Formula in the Mid 70's?

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Nordic

Are all the Brands Hatch Racing School Lola Sports 2000's accounted for?

Were the school cars Lola Sports 2000s? I thought that they used the later Multi-Sports Van Diemans.

[Clive Brown]

Hmm.... some interesting recent postings.

(i) The racing school at Brands Hatch did indeed originally have Sports 2000 Lolas, but I'm pretty sure that they were T490s, rather than T492s.

(ii) Group 6 was the open sports car formula from the early/mid. 70s on.

(iii) 911thillclimber is correct, Alan Humberstone was not really a 'hands-on' spanner man; he lacked the necessary patience. His dad, Harry, was very enthusiastic, but a bit ham-fisted.

(iv) I'm not sure if Brian Davis himself dabbled much on the mechanical side, either! However, IIRC, Brian did know John Sabourin, who certainly was capable of transferring the bits of the wreck of HU6 on to the T492 that the Humberstones had acquired from (we believe) Dennis Humphries.

We seem to have three principal questions which remain unanswered:

(a) Who transferred the bits from the wreck of T490/HU6 on to the S/H T492 tub that the Humberstones had acquired from (?) Dennis Humphries? ;

(b) Who fitted the Ford motor into the KG that it used in its only known public outing, given that it had a 420R installed when H&S passed it back to the Humberstones, having fitted the KG bodywork? ; and

(c) From whom did Dennis Humhries acquire the car?

[911thillclimber]

It is about time I collated all the scraps of info I've been given by the players I've actually spoken to over the last 3 years. Some of the info details are contradictory due to memory loss etc, but it might all gel with your help.

From the original lola sales list no 490/492 was sold to a school.
The list is valid i feel as it has T 490 HU6 as the Tohlman Holdings car that was sold to Tony Dickinsone to be the Skoda that Alan/Harry bought and crashed.

The scraps of paper are full of goodies and names.

I must go out now as my wife has been told her 4th skin cancer is actually not a cancer, so a meal out!

I am sure Clive will have a field day with his excellent memory with the listing. Might take a bit of time to list it chronologically and by person.

I've spotted who fitted the suspension over and details of the engine changes but not by who.

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by 911thillclimber

From the original lola sales list no 490/492 was sold to a school.

Not nominally maybe, but look for sales of T490s or, less likely in my view, T492s, to John Webb, Motor Circuit Developments (MCD), Jackie Epstein, Epstein Enterprises, Epstein Cuthbert Racing, Motor Racing Stables (MRS), etc., etc., etc. I can remember seeing the school cars parked up at Brands Hatch, so they must have come from somewhere!