[BTCC] Races 19, 20 & 21 - Knockhill, Fife - 16th August 2009

[helterskelter]

I loved the way Fabrizio defended from Turk with virtually no front tyres and against a lighter car. I found that fantastic, I saw again his battles against Naspettin the '90s, with Gio in the Alfa 155 and Naspo in the 3 series BMW.
Am I the only one who enjoyed so much seeing him go through the chicane? That corner looks a lot like the so-called Schumacher in Pergusa (or Enna, as I understand is being called abroad).
Very nice racing from Plato, he surely had a lighter car and probably the fastest in the field, but it still takes a lot of experience, confidence and talent to overtake such an amount of cars. I appreciate the fact that he was honest in saying that Giovanardi did the right choice in not resisting too much on him, he let him through and that was the best thing to do for one who's in the battle for the championship.
Good to see Jackson win again, I like him very much as a driver. I guess his problem this year was just getting to grips with the FWD, which is never easy.
Do you think Turkington is feeling the pressure now? Gio claims that one of the key factors in winning his first Btcc crown (2007) was that he was able to put pressure on Plato. Do you guys think this is going to happen again?

[davyboy]

Gio is a world class driver and at Knockhill he gave a demonstration on how to get round that track faster. His progress through the chicane was breathtaking and a lesson for the others. The BTCC is privileged to have him compete there and I really hope that things work out so that he's back next year.

The Turk's been very consistent this year and that's probably the main reason he's where he is. He's a very quick driver, but I feel not quite as quick as maybe Plato and Gio. One thing he is very good at is absorbing pressure. He's probably the coolest guy out there - there's not a lot fazes him. Its hard to know whether he'll hang on until the end of the year - I'd love it it if he did - but I guess its a good thing that we're kept on the edge of our seat with a battle royal for the championship now.

[werner]

I loved the way Fabrizio defended from Turk with virtually no front tyres and against a lighter car.

I can still remember his race in Valencia 2005 with the Alfa where he defended his 2nd place all race long against 4 obviously faster bmw's. And Knockhill 2007 where he got his first BTCC-win. He is a great defender. I guess Italians are good in looking into mirrors, because that's what they do half of the day?

[gregc]

Originally Posted by gregc

Funnily enough I was wondering about this earlier on (Tim Harvey mentioned it I think), so I've stuck the question on Alan's forum.

Update on this - WTCC dispensations don't get automatically transferred to BTCC, and the Lacetti's run to a "slightly different" spec to when they were in the world series. No more detailed info than that unfortunately.

[Icebaby]

The championship battle will be decided by team mates being there to support rather than Gio and Turkington, problem for WSR is they have only one other car against two other VXR's, Jelley now has to be there to support Turkington otherwise I can see the title going to Gio again.

[touringlegend]

I'd like to see Turkington do it this year but I just get the feeling Giovanardi is too wise for Turkington. Almost every weekend you can guarantee Gio will get 3 good finishes, some would say it's lucky but it probably is just due to his style like Plato highlighted, he knows when to fight and when not to.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by werner

I loved the way Fabrizio defended from Turk with virtually no front tyres and against a lighter car.

I can still remember his race in Valencia 2005 with the Alfa where he defended his 2nd place all race long against 4 obviously faster bmw's. And Knockhill 2007 where he got his first BTCC-win. He is a great defender. I guess Italians are good in looking into mirrors, because that's what they do half of the day?

Priaulx did the same thing in Dubai 2004 against the Alfas and won the title, so I guess it's not about Italians but about world class drivers
I like Turkington because he's not only fast, but he also connects his brain while he's driving, something not everyone out there is capable to do. Of course I'd love to see Giovanardi take that hat-trick, but if Turkington takes the crown nobody can say he stole it! Let me just say, though, that as touringlegend said Fabrizio is a very consistent driver (and would you tell an old SuperTouring Italian fan, he'll laugh at you because 'Piedone' was the most aggressive driver out there!). That consistency puts a lot of pressure, nevermind from a guy who's probably the most successful touring car driver of this era, except Priaulx and possibly Yvan Muller. He took a lot of national titles plus a European one, and I believe that's one of the things that cross the mind of a driver while they're fighting against him. I'm sure that having Giovanardi or Plato behind you is much different than, say, having Rob Collard, even if he has a fast car and he's pushing you.

[werner]

Given his talent, I don't think Muller is that succesfull, with 'only' 2 titles. A hat-trick of titles in the BTCC, I doubt that it happened before, I know it has not happened since the 2l-formula.
Turkington is very fast, but when it comes to hard fights, Giovanardi has the better cards imo. He is most of all able to race very though, without crossing the line far or often. Turkington has the habit of being either 'to' fair, or to though, and finds it harder to find that middle ground. That where experience comes in I guess, and Turkington has quite a lot, but Giovanardi has loads of it.
Anyway, they are both great drivers, so lets hope for a dramatic, spectacular, exiting and tight fight for the title in the coming races!

[helterskelter]

3 people took 3 Btcc titles back-to-back, the last being Andy Rouse. As for Yvan being successful, it sounds funny that I have to kind of 'defend' him, but he actually won 3 titles, on eof which is the World championship, so maybe someone might rate the World crown highly than, say, 2 Spanish titles and a European one... If you ask me, I'll tell you that the only guy who can compete against Priaulx in outright performance is Fabrizio, though he is older. Of course there are plenty of great drivers out there, I love seeing Plato, Turkington, Yvan Muller (though I don't like him very much as a person) and many more, but those guys are special to me... I may be biased, though!

[werner]

I know of Yvan's Britisch title in 2003 and his world title last year. Wich is his 3th than?
I value Gio's European title as high as the current world title; it was and is the greatest prize you can win in touringcars (you might consider the DTM-title as well, but those cars are more prototypes imo)

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

3 people took 3 Btcc titles back-to-back, the last being Andy Rouse.

Don't forget that these guys won 3 times in a row under the old multiclass-points system, where you usually only had to fight against a handfull of cars in your respective class.

If Gio really does three in a row, I'd rate that even higher, given the current single class format and 20 cars from the same class on the grid!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by werner

I know of Yvan's Britisch title in 2003 and his world title last year. Wich is his 3th than?

He won the French title in the mid 1990s.

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Don't forget that these guys won 3 times in a row under the old multiclass-points system, where you usually only had to fight against a handfull of cars in your respective class.

If Gio really does three in a row, I'd rate that even higher, given the current single class format and 20 cars from the same class on the grid!

I'm not sure, Andy Rouse also won these titles while building, developing and running the cars himself. That's an impressive feat.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by werner

I know of Yvan's Britisch title in 2003 and his world title last year. Wich is his 3th than?
I value Gio's European title as high as the current world title; it was and is the greatest prize you can win in touringcars (you might consider the DTM-title as well, but those cars are more prototypes imo)

As already stated, he won the French crown in 1995. I agree with what you say, but there are many who don't think that the European championship was pretty much similar to the World championship. It's just a matter of where the tracks are located around the world, but after all the concept is the same: the best manufacturers and the best drivers in TCs. I would also like to remind that at that time Volvo and Peugeot were in as works teams, too, which made it even more difficult.
Finally, I know this is an endless discussion, but just like you I rate the DTM cars as very attractive, but not touring cars. Too much downforce and too much difference from the road cars!

[werner]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

I'm not sure, Andy Rouse also won these titles while building, developing and running the cars himself. That's an impressive feat.

You don't see that very often, if at all these days. But, times are changed, I guess today that is just impossible. You need to focus full time on making a car into a winner, and you have to focus yourself 100% to be a winning driver. And only few people have more than 100% of their time.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by werner

You don't see that very often, if at all these days. But, times are changed, I guess today that is just impossible. You need to focus full time on making a car into a winner, and you have to focus yourself 100% to be a winning driver. And only few people have more than 100% of their time.

This one is fantastic, I suggest you to claim copyright on it! You're absolutely right, anyway!

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

Collard looked like they were being overly aggressive and lacked manners, Sheddens punt back totally justifed.

Agreed, but it seems Collard disagreed. Or does anybody seriously think the race 3 bump from C into S that sent S straight into the barriers was pure accidental? In a weekend with so much great driving (Gio, Plato, etc) I think it's sad that a untalented brute is allowed to spoil things with such shoddy driving and get away unpunished.

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Running with the fastest car and zero ballast in a field of 17 cars didn't exactly make it that much of a task in my opinion.

Well, if you start at the very back in race 2-3 it's pretty natural you have 0 ballast. That is equal for anybody in that position any weekend. And Im not sure tagging another 5-10 "also raced" at the back of the grid would have made Platos rise from back to 2nd much harder. The knockhill grid was markedly fewer in numbers, but not much down in quality (as clearly seen in the great racing we had).

Originally Posted by werner

Turkington has the habit of being either 'to' fair, or to though, and finds it harder to find that middle ground.

Im not sure I agree. I think T has been mostly fair and clean through this season (which is what at least I want to see) while Gio from time to time pulls dirty moves that are just so unnecessary. Eg this weekend, did he really need to put Shedden off onto the grass when passing him?

For sure though, T will be hard pressed to hold on to #1 spot by the end of the year. But who knows, maybe Gio will collect enough bad karma points to have a dirty move take himself out and score a 0 in a race or two.

[werner]

Here is the move

I just thought that was an example of being right on the edge. But that offcourse depends on where your edge lies. He made very, very sure he would complete his pass without Shedden, or any other driver due to him slowing down, could retaliate. It should not have been a bit harder, but he did it in a way that cost Shedden a bit of time, but not the race.
Here is by the way a pas later in the race, from Turkington on Shedden. It is a bit cleaner, but is it because Turkington did it cleaner, or is it because Shedden has learned that it is not a good idea to try to stay at the outside of your overtaker at that hairpin?

[davyboy]

There's not an awful lot to talk about with either of the moves. They're fairly typical touring car overtaking manouvres with a bit of bodywork rubbing. I would have said both were 'clean'. Turkington and Gio have an eye on the crown and both were driving relatively conservatively with that in mind at Knockhill. Figure them to become even more conservative as the year closes in. Plato will be the one to watch because he needs victories and only victories. It will be a win or bust strategy from here on in and he's likely to be a dangerous person to be around for the rest of this year. Should be exciting.

[helterskelter]

I don't find Fabrizio did it much dirty. When you have to exploit someone 's mistake it can happen that you touch him. If you see carefully, Fabrizio suddenly steers after the tap, which makes me suspect that it was not fully intentional...

[Craner Curves]

If I was Turkington, I'd much rather have Giovanardi chasing me than anyone else. He will only dish out the rough stuff if it's given to him. And that's what I like, Thompson is of a similar style.

Collard seemed to be ok last year, but when he tries to step up that level to being on the podium, he gets a little bit clumsy. Also at Knockhill, there was allegedly a gentleman's agreement between the 4 BMW drivers not to do anything too stupid to eachother, but then he took Turkington off at Duffus Dip in race 1, after Turkington had made a slightly robust move down the inside at the hairpin.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by werner

Here is the move

I just thought that was an example of being right on the edge. But that offcourse depends on where your edge lies. He made very, very sure he would complete his pass without Shedden, or any other driver due to him slowing down, could retaliate. It should not have been a bit harder, but he did it in a way that cost Shedden a bit of time, but not the race.

Clean racing IMO is when you go wheel to wheel, even for multiple turns, and always leave enough room for the guy on the outside to keep all 4 wheels on the track.

Shedden made an error and got off the line, leaving the door wide open for Gio. Gio, already passing still couldn't resist to force S off the road so he didnt just drop 1 place but also lost 2nd. In my book that is not a clean or fair way to pass, and getting put off the road like that can easily lead to a spin/crash (as seen several times this knockhill weekend).

In any case, cudos to Turkington for not stooping to the same level but pulling off a gutsy clean move instead.

[Craner Curves]

I've found that the move where you go past, then elbow the other car off the road has been very common these past few years (Mr Shedden did it a lot in the Integra) and it's one I don't agree with. However, I don't think Shedden helped himself there by taking a very wide line into the hairpin and gifting Giovanardi the place.