Where were the doctors?/Delay getting to Ralf (merged)

[Elio]

I agree with the marshals here who are saying that they should never make a situation potentially more dangerous by going trackside if it is not safe.

The fact is they should never have been put in this position. The race director (it appears from this thread that it is he who has overall responsibilty) should`ve had that race stopped within 10-20 seconds of the car coming to rest with no driver response.

Procedures should have already been in place to filter any cars still on the track through the pits to avoid the main "straightaway".

This is Formula 1. This isn`t UK club-level motorsport. Every feasible eventuality should be being taken into account before the running of any F1 event. A major crash in this area of the circuit is not something that I would consider unlikely given the nature of this particular track. Plans should have been in place to deal with this kind of eventuality but clearly were not.

The race director in question should either be fired or tender his resignation. A similar situation cannot be allowed to happen again, potentially at the expense of a driver`s life. In my opinion it is wholly unacceptable to treat this situation differently because the driver is (thankfully) OK. The situation needs investigating as if it were another Imola - people MUST be held accountable.

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by Elio
with no driver response.

There was a driver response.

[blue nose]

What they needed were some NW super Marshals to the the job done quicker.

[jminsh]

I'd have got home quicker and in time to see it if BN hadn't blocked me from getting out of the paddock @ Anglesey !!

[Elio]

In my opinion not one that was at all conducive to anything other than a decision to terminate the motor-race and divert all attention to that particular driver`s immediate health and safety.

[F1JordanUk]

Williams were in contact with ralf, and F1 drivers don't seem to like yellow flags, Look at brazil last year.

[blue nose]

What they need ia Alister to have a word with them then.

[aprescott]

I think it was a case of seconds seeming like hours, if anyone has been to The Brickyard they will know that that part of the track is almost blind to oncomming traffic and so going out to a strichen car without a safety car would be very foolish and no doubt pointless as what could one marshal do surrounded by concreate walls and 10ft high safety fencing?? no where to run and no where to hide!

But I'm sure there will always be people that would do it differently.....

[FilW]

Questions:
Was the race director an employee of the circuit or a dedicated F1 official?
Is there a recognised minimum time for the medical team to arrive?
What have Williams had to say about the response time?
IMO if there is any doubt at all about the condition of the driver then the race should be red flagged. As has been said already the first few moments can be critical and if RS had been in a serious condition the incident would now be on prime time news.

[Kicking-back]

Race director is an F1 official.

[Elio]

Race director WAS an F1 official.

[Tony_Simpson]

One thing along the same lines...

Why did the ambulance drive all the way around the circuit when it could have gone the wrong way up the wide pit lane to get to the medical centre??

If it was a more serious accident then the 5 minutes more it took them to get back to the pits would have been critical.

[Elio]

Simply because the planning required to professionally host a professional racing series at that venue had presumably not been done. Alternatively, it HAD been done but WAS NOT carried out correctly.

[Shinners]

Unfortunately, where Ralf went off is the fastest part of the circuit and putting a rescue unit or marshals out in live traffic without the safety car would have been so dangerous. Instead, IMO the race should have been red flagged immediately given the impact of the incident.

[alec]

It took a few seconds short of two minutes for any marshal to even be in sight of his car.
It should have been a red flag without question. If it's too dangerous for marshals to work efficently then there shouldn't be another F1 race there again. Simple really.

Bernie's wallet thinks safety doesn't matter though.

[BootsOntheSide]

I hope the recent route towards not stopping races no matte rwhat the situation is soon halted. As we've seen here, it could've been a fatal situation, yet they were happy to race on. It made life very difficult for the marshals and crash teams to have the field of cars passing them as they worked, especially as the drivers (especially Michael; udnerstandably but not entirely sensibly) were moving in very close to try to see who and how the driver was.

[avsfan733]

Alright enough blaming Indy during the 500 safety teams are often on drivers before the car stops moving. The Race Director has the final say, I am also pretty sure from Rewatching it that there was only one marshal access point to the front straight and that was not all that close to ralf. So the Race director must have made the call, being an F1 official we know where to look and it is not Indy, As for the Medical Car going round the circuit (realizing the medical car is seperate from the ambulance) I guarantee that within about 3 seconds of the crash that Sid Watkins was in the car flying out onto the track. The problem would have been that at that poing the field was not in any sort of form behind the safety car. I'll bet that the medical car reacted so quickly that there wasnt' even time to consider sending them the wrong way round until they were in turn one. and even if they had it would have been incredibly dangerous I agree the reace should have been redflagged But I also think it shopuld have been redflagged after alonso's crash which spread debris all over the fastest braking zone on the track

[Woolley]

You wouldn't ever send a vehicle Wrong Direction on a live track. Protocol for all circuits is that you request permission to go W/D even if everything is stopped. The risk of a head on collision is to great because the drivers simply wouldn't be prepared for something coming towards them.

[Woolley]

Sorry to double-post, but I've now seen the incident (ITV are replaying the race). What hasn't been noted is that several marshal-looking people we running up the pit lane in the immediate aftermath. There is high debris fencing all along the pit wall as well as on the outside wall, meaning there is no access at all for marshals on this section of track. In addition most of the cars passed to the inside of Ralf - presumably as there was less deris that side - so even if there are gaps to get through the fence there would have been no safe way of getting to him and absolutely nowhere to go should they need to. With the track full of debris there would have been a high risk of another car losing control with a puncture even at reduced speed.

IMO, the marshals were blameless, and in hindsight it was OK to run, but I feel the correct action would have been to throw the red flag and allow the medical teams to scramble sooner.

[Elio]

....then IF there was indeed "no access at all for marshals on this section of track" then HOW ON EARTH could the world`s premier Motor-Racing Championship be allowed to run there?

[sawbench]

I started this topic and had no idea it would prevoke such a response.

What I still cannot believe is that there are so many ' well I won't do anything until I'm told' people contributing to this topic.

fog_shadow has it on the money. "human life comes first. nothing and i repeat nothing else is more important."

There are a few who are in agreement with my general swathe of, 'it just took too long to get there.'

I cannot believe so many people would not - as I have said earlier - jump the fence.

Mika Häkinen's life was saved by that doctor vaulting the wall in Australia that year and doing what he was trained, and wanted to do. betcha he didn't wait for race direction/radio call/website forum chit chat etc, but he saved the bloke's life (Swallowed his tongue / bloodied his nose I seem to remember but stand to be corrected.)

Complete no brainer in my book and you can spend all the time you like telling me otherwise.

[Fantasy GP610]

I still think the race should have been red-flagged as soon as it became apparent RS was motionless in the car.

It is totally understandable why marshals would not go out onto a track while a race was still running.

So i have a couple of questions.........

Why could'nt the drivers just be told to stop wherever they were on track as soon as the seriousness of the accident became apparent.
This would then allow marshals/paramedics/medical cars/ambulances or whoever to go where they wanted on the track (the wrong way around if necessary) without fear of an F1 car suddenly appearing.

As the cars were following the safety car on track what if a tyre had picked up some carbon fibre and then punctured or whatever as the cars were going past the scene of the accident.
Can an F1 driver control a car that much (at the speed the safety car was going) to ensure he dosen't hit someone as close as the marshals and medics were yesterday.

Someone,somewhere needs to explain why what happened yesterday happened as it did,and ensure (as much as possible)that it does not happen again.

What is more important.......a man's life or the continuation of a race

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by sawbench
I started this topic and had no idea it would prevoke such a response.

What I still cannot believe is that there are so many ' well I won't do anything until I'm told' people contributing to this topic.

fog_shadow has it on the money. "human life comes first. nothing and i repeat nothing else is more important."

There are a few who are in agreement with my general swathe of, 'it just took too long to get there.'

I cannot believe so many people would not - as I have said earlier - jump the fence.

Mika Häkinen's life was saved by that doctor vaulting the wall in Australia that year and doing what he was trained, and wanted to do. betcha he didn't wait for race direction/radio call/website forum chit chat etc, but he saved the bloke's life (Swallowed his tongue / bloodied his nose I seem to remember but stand to be corrected.)

Complete no brainer in my book and you can spend all the time you like telling me otherwise.

OK, I've watched this thread develope....now time for me to speak:



1) How many of you posters have ever marshalled in the US?

2) How many of you have ever lived in the US?

3) How many of you have ever stood, peering through a small gap in the debris fence, with cars coming past you at 200mph+ a few feet away?

4) Do any of you know how many marshals have been killed or seriously injured in the US over the last few years?

5) Have any of you ever been present at a CART marshal's briefing?

The point is this;

having lived, worked and marshalled in the US I have a better idea of just what was going through the minds of the marshals on the day.

1) DO NOT GO ONTO A LIVE TRACK !
2) DO NOT GO ONTO A LIVE TRACK OR ELSE !!!!!! (to quote CART, "you will never attend another of our meetings" )

I will agree that it was too long before medical assistance arrived but that was NOT the marshal's fault. They (as in US marshals at high profile events) are left in NO DOUBT as to what they are allowed/ not allowed to do.

Add to this the litigation issues in the US and then you might actually have some idea as to why the 'marshals', actually Flag and Communication, did not respond.

As stated previously, this was not some clubbie in the UK, this was an FIA controlled event and so any criticisms should be directed at them and them alone unless someone, who was "on-the-scene" knows better.

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by Fantasy GP610
I still think the race should have been red-flagged as soon as it became apparent RS was motionless in the car.

He wasn't.

[Alan Green]

I've read the posts and seen the incident more than once, so here're my thoughts (again from a marshals slant)...

- 100 Seconds exactly from impact to FIV arrival on scene.
Yes this was too long, no arguement there. 90 Seconds is the general guideline for circuits.

- Safety Car was already on standby following the Renault incident which was still being dealt with.
SC Was scrambled immediately, so no problem with that either, and the boards and flags seemed to go out instantly as required by the FIA. At the first safety car, the drivers backed off immediately, so I guess they did at this one too (although most went into the pitlane).

- The doctors car (Syd Watkins & Gary Hartstein) would have been at the end of the pitlane nearest pit entry (F1 direction).
So to release the Doctors car it had to go through the pitlane, and round the 2.3mile twisty F1 circuit to the incident. What was wrong with using the Oval, or were there barriers round there? Also, if there was going to be a biggy at Indy it'd either be at the first corner on lap 1 (for which the doctor car is chasing anyway), or into the oval walls - the rest of the circuit at least has other safety features like tyre walls, gravel traps, etc to retain incidents.

- Every car which came round before coming under safety car control went under the incident (pit wall side).
- The fence on the outside of the wall has no access gaps for obvious reasons (ask Kenny Brack in IRL why). The pitwall fence only has signalling gaps (as far as I know.)
Both of these things go towards the lack of immediate intervention, plus 1) You can't get to it 2) You shouldn't go to it 3) There are people on the way to deal with it. From a marshals perspective all those three go completely against the grain. As the coverage shows there is a bunch of cars go past, and then a gap during which someone could have jumped off the pitwall to go to Ralf. Give around ten seconds to get through the wall + fence, and another five or six seconds to get to the car. A lone Toyota came round at about 17 seconds since the last car and went below the incident. Thats why marshals don't go out there until the track is under control.

Yes it was a nasty incident, and yes some things were very badly handled (including multiple TV angles), but the big thing that attracts F1 to Indy is the unique use of the bank. Unique races need unique rules. I think some of the rules need a look at before next years visit.

And finally to clear up a couple of things - Wrong directions for vehicles? No way. And a free lunch for marshals someone suggested earlier. Again, 'fraid not.

Sorry to go on,
Al.