Fisico...(again) Only Bad Luck??

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally Posted by Oaksnaf

what benefits does it hold for Flavio to have one car doing awesome and the other poor??

As Alonso's manager, Flavio gets 10% of every contract Fernando gets. Plus, if more resources are put inot Fernando's car at GCF's expense, it makes Fernando look better than he is, and increases the potential value of that contract. I'm not discrediting Alonso's amrvellous dirign this year, adn I agree that Giancarlo has often under-performed, but I think it's naive to suggest that the 5-0 ratio of mechancial problems to Giancarlo is a pure coincidence. Unless it becomes 5-5 by the end of the season, of course.

[Knowlesy]

Amrvellous dirign?

[Kidzer]

Marvellout Drivin' I think he means...


...I think

[Oaksnaf]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

As Alonso's manager, Flavio gets 10% of every contract Fernando gets. Plus, if more resources are put inot Fernando's car at GCF's expense, it makes Fernando look better than he is, and increases the potential value of that contract. I'm not discrediting Alonso's amrvellous dirign this year, adn I agree that Giancarlo has often under-performed, but I think it's naive to suggest that the 5-0 ratio of mechancial problems to Giancarlo is a pure coincidence. Unless it becomes 5-5 by the end of the season, of course.

Taking that general view on board. You would then say:

2004: BAR were heavily favouring Button as Sato suffered 6 Engine failures compared to Buttons 1 engine and 1 gearbox failure.

2004: McLaren cleary favoured DC as he only suffered 2 failures compared to Kimi's 8.

2004: Minardi clearly favoured Zsolt because he had 3 failures compared to the 5 of Bruni's.

2005: Renault are clearly favouring Alonso because of what? 1 engine failure?? makes complete sense to me. I dont know where you pulled that 5-0 from.

2005: McLaren are clearly favouring Montoya because he has had 0 failures, to Kimi's 2.

2005: Jordan are clearly favouring Tiago because he has had 0 failures and Narian has had 2.

2005: Minardi are clearly favouring Patrick because he has had 1 failure, compared to Albers 3.

If you are looking to argue about Fisi's retirements to Alonso's you are going the wrong way about it. You cannot prove anything by saying that Fisi has had 1 engine failure because of TEAM neglect, not Flavio neglect, TEAM neglect.

So based on your assumption McLaren love Monty, Jordan love Tiago, Minardi love Patrick, and Renault love Alonso.

I see no consistency in your argument. Just because 1 driver has better luck in mechanical failures does not make him the favourite in the team, or does not mean there is a corrupt team who are totally bias towards one driver in the technical side.

failures are 1-0 pure coincidence?? whatever.....

[Peter Mallett]

I agree with Oaksnaf.

But for me its not just a matter of luck with drivers, its more a case of "if it looks right, it is right" and I've never got that feeling with Fisi. (Inigo asked me if my criticism was based on logic and clearly it isn't).

There have been loads of racers where I've watched them and thought, "Yep, he'll go far" whilst others I've thought the opposite. Of course its not foolproof but that's the way it is.

Of the current crop in the "no" camp is MW, JPM and Takuma, whilst in the Yes camp is Kimi, Fernando and Jenson. Of course the surprise this year is Nick so I do stand to be corrected but that's my opinion.

Fisi has had years to prove himself and whilst not in the best machinery he's done a reasonable but not outstanding job. His destruction (as people sometimes put it) of Jenson at Benneton was purely based on the fact that Jenson was psychologically outgunned, having Flav as his team boss and Sir Frank as his contractual boss, but look what that did the next year with BAR where, having learned that, he put the same "hex" on JV.

Fisi doesn't appear to have learned any real lessons in race driver's craft (which is why I said he's a nice bloke) and thus doesn't use all the weapons available to him.

[Gt_R]

I don't understand why people want to write off Fisi. I find him a likable F1 driver whom i like quite a lot, and is glad that he is in F1. Even if he never become a WDC. Top 10 driver, possibly top 8.

He had bad luck this season, and a whole host of mechanical problems. He did not exactly match Alonso's position, but it's simply similar in situation as to what JPM faces at Mclaren with Kimi.

Flavio is a hard player, and a smart business man. No. i'm NOT suggesting that Fisi is being compromised to make Alonso look good or that team orders and stuff, but i do think that Alonso may find himself at a more comfortable position than Fisi may be.

It's as good as having your father as the company CEO. Unfortunately, with Fisi's relatively quiet nature, i feel he may be bullied in with regards to his position within the team. He needs to put in a few strong races to have a strong confidence, and with that strong confidence, i'm sure he'd perform better.

[Oaksnaf]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

I don't understand why people want to write off Fisi. I find him a likable F1 driver whom i like quite a lot, and is glad that he is in F1. Even if he never become a WDC. Top 10 driver, possibly top 8.

He had bad luck this season, and a whole host of mechanical problems. He did not exactly match Alonso's position, but it's simply similar in situation as to what JPM faces at Mclaren with Kimi.

Flavio is a hard player, and a smart business man. No. i'm NOT suggesting that Fisi is being compromised to make Alonso look good or that team orders and stuff, but i do think that Alonso may find himself at a more comfortable position than Fisi may be.

It's as good as having your father as the company CEO. Unfortunately, with Fisi's relatively quiet nature, i feel he may be bullied in with regards to his position within the team. He needs to put in a few strong races to have a strong confidence, and with that strong confidence, i'm sure he'd perform better.

For me, im not writing off Fisi. I am merely arguing with those who are finding excuses for Fisi left right and centre. bad luck, Flavio favourtism is the reason he is not performing.

When the crunch comes down, Australia was great (but got the right luck). Malaysia was dismall. Bahrain got no chance. Imola qual was compromised, then he spun out, on his own accord?? Monaco like Alonso had dead rear tyres and went backwards. European was unlucky with the start, then drove well for the rest of the GP. but so many others suffered bad luck in that race, and really was lucky to be where he was.

I think Fisi needs a lot of things to go right for him to get the best result. Whereas Kimi/Alonso can make something out of nothing. Thats what seperates them.

Fisi is in a Renault and he can win GP's, but overall he is not WDC material.

[Inigo Montoya]

I don't buy any conspiracy theory. But I also don't buy that a driver should be judged when he is not given the machinery to perform. And if you read through the comments of the team on www.renaultf1.com you will find that his own team has publicly apologized to him for substandard machinery in virtually every race save Australia.

The argument that Fisi cannot make "something out of nothing" like Kimi and Alonso do, is baseless. Fisichella has had repeatedly fight back from bad luck this season, and he has done so admirably.

[Knowlesy]

Generally he has, but there are times where he seems to lack confidence and let his head drop.

I've said it about a million times, the only thing holding Fisi back is his ehad. he has everything else, but mentally he appears fragile. Alonso is so tough to crack......he had a very under par 2004 and has bounced back beautifully this year.

[Oaksnaf]

But the thing is, Fisi has been under the 'unlucky by classy driver in an uncompetative car' for ages. And people complained why he has not been signed up by a top line team.

At the start of the year he was an irradic driver in Minardi causing a lot of incidents and got a name for himself not through driving fast, but by crashing (even into his own team-mate in an overtaking attempt)

Then came Jordan up against a new arrival to F1 in the name of Ralf Schumacher.

Fisi had 5 reitrements (4 officialy), and only 1 of them was technical related. Whilst his new team-mate Ralf suffered 10 retirements, 5 were technical failures.

Now on all the races in which they both finished lets have a look:

French Grand Prix:

Qual:
Ralf: 3rd
Fisi: 11th

Race:
Ralf: 6th
Fisi: 9th (with 2 people in front of Fisi DNF)

British Grand Prix:

Qual:
Ralf: 5th
Fisi: 10th

Race:
Ralf: 5th
Fisi: 7th (didn't finish on the same lap as Ralf)

German Grand Prix:

Qual:
Ralf: 7th
Fisi: 2nd

Race:
Ralf: 5th
Fisi: Not official classified as a retirement though finished 11th with an Oil Cooler failure.

Austrian Grand Prix:

Qual:
Ralf: 11th
Fisi: 14th

Race:
Ralf: 5th
Fisi: 4th

Japense Grand Prix:

Qual:
Ralf: 13th
Fisi: 9th

Race:
Ralf: 9th
Fisi: 7th


In total
Qual:
Ralf: 3
Fisi: 2

Race:
Ralf: 4
Fisi: 1

Now that year Ralf finished in the points every single time except once out of his 7 finishes. Compared to Fisi's 6 point finishes from 13 Grand Prix

The next year he went to Benneton up against Wurz who had only had 3 GP's under his belt.

This time Fisi turned the tables quite convingly on the the qualifying. But once again was beaten in the race. I believe it was 6:2 in favour of Wurz in the GP's that they finished. Not only that but Wurz outscored Fisi in his first full season of Formula One.

So out of 2 full years, Fisi has been beaten by Ralf on debut, and then Wurz in his first full season.

1999-2000 Fisi then really turned the tables on Wurz and quite easily beat him.

2001 faced Button who had only 1 season under his belt at Williams and the Benneton was a hopeless car and even despite being around the back of the grid all the time Fisi was able to beat Boy Button.

2002 faced another rookie in Takuma Sato.

Fisi showed some signs of speed in an uncompetative car once again whilst Sato struggled for most of the season with DNF's however he shined at Japan. Fisi won this battle.,

2003: yet again up against a rookie in Ralph Firman. Fisi drove a wonderful race at Brazil and came away with his first ever victory after the race was cut short. his engine seized after he pulled into the pits after the race.

2004: Finally Fisi was showing what he could do in a Sauber, up against Massa who is only in his second season. Fisi and Massa did quite well towards the end of the year qualifying well and scoring a handy haul of points.

Ave Qual:
Fisi: 12.1
massa; 13.9

Race:
Fisi: 8
Massa: 9.3

So there wasn't that much of a clean victory by Fisi over Massa except when it came to the points, but points are not always the best indication of speed.

Now in 2005 he finally gets a good car, but finally gets a FAST opponent. He wins Australia, but is then out-qualled and out raced for the rest of the races by Alonso.

So looking back over his career, Fisi has never faced a classy driver. He has faced rookies and those with few Grand Prix under their belt.

Ralf (rookie)
Wurz (3 Gp's under belt)
Button (1 season)
Sato (rookie)
Firman (rookie)
Massa (1 season)

now Alonso, and he is being torn apart.

Fair's fair, argue all you want. But Fisi was yet to A)drive a fast car B)have a fast team-mate now he has both of these two and is really yet to demonstrate anything of the WDC he has been hailed to be by the press or by his fans.

I say its time to wake up and smell the news. Fisi will never win the championship and he will not beat Alonso consistently in a pure fight to the flag.

once, twice he shows his brilliance, three, four times maybe. But the likes of Schumacher, Alonso, Kimi show their brilliance every race.

[Inigo Montoya]

I'd write a long rebuttal, but you can just do a search of the database - I've been a member here for a while, and have met many that share your opinion.

Back on topic. He sure has been unlucky this season.

[Oaksnaf]

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

I'd write a long rebuttal, but you can just do a search of the database - I've been a member here for a while, and have met many that share your opinion.

Back on topic. He sure has been unlucky this season.

Well i read you last 200 posts and thought, well i really dont have the hours at the moment to read countless threads/posts/arguments as such.

Ive got the general vibe of your opinion at least.

[Inigo Montoya]

And I have the general vibe of yours. As for previous teammates, I think it is generally accepted by most (including yourself) that he has had the better of them. Yes, he did not spank Ralf like he spanked the rest of them, but he did finish ahead on points over all. And I once did a qualifying differential (based on time) teammate comparison a long while back, and the results were firmly n his favour against all his teammates.

Listen, I will be honest. I expected more from my boy, Giancarlo. Maybe he has been rattled by the pace of Fernando. But I still think that with a bit of reliability, he can come back strong in the remaining races. Or I'll have trouble showing my face around here

[Gabrio]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Fair enough but (and I may have missed it in which case I apologise) what is your opinion of him? Or should I determine that from your disagreement with my thoughts?

Sorry Peter...I have been away for a few days and missed your post.

Setting humor aside, these are my considerations on the matter :

1. I do hold Fisi in high esteem (in the top 5 drivers for me)
2. That opinion is based on technical feedback, reliability, intelligence and racecraft, as well as marketing value for sponsors.
3. I do think he's underperforming (psychologically) for a number of reasons among which Alonso's speed is a major one
4. I also think that Alonso has full attention from Renault while Fisi might get a tiny bit less. That bit in F1 may turn out to be significant.
5. I think Fisico's record speaks for itself and it his more than honorable.
6. I also think Briatore's interest is to push for drivers who are contracted to him rather than others.....

[Mr V]

I have to admit to being on of these people in the distant past on tenths that would ask the question "if he's so good, why isn't he in a top team?"

He obvioulsy fell out of favour with Flavio a couple of seasons ago, went to Jordan, which wasn't a brilliant car, and imo, didn't out-perform his rookie team-mates, Sato and Firman enough, yes, he got that win, but it was lucky, and lets face it, had Firman not gone off, maybe he would have won, who knows?

But then came last season at Sauber, and for me, he matured alot in that one season, maybe more than he did in all his previous seasons put together and drove a storming season once he found his feet (are you reading this JV? ) and rightly got the drive with a top team like Renault.

In Australia, he drove a brilliant race, but the only other driver who could have won that, his team-mate, started way down the grid, that said, we don't know if Fisi drove to his full potential, i don't think he did, because he didn't have to.

He has been very unlucky in the races since then, and i have read reports that his nose change in Spain was unnecessary (conspiricy theory here?) but then i'm not on the pit wall, so i wouldn't know.

Imo, Fisi deserves this drive, i just hope he starts to get some luck going his way so he can show us all how good he really is, and i think he's very good - and i wasn't saying that a few seasons ago.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Gabrio

1. I do hold Fisi in high esteem (in the top 5 drivers for me)
2. That opinion is based on technical feedback, reliability, intelligence and racecraft, as well as marketing value for sponsors.
3. I do think he's underperforming (psychologically) for a number of reasons among which Alonso's speed is a major one
4. I also think that Alonso has full attention from Renault while Fisi might get a tiny bit less. That bit in F1 may turn out to be significant.
5. I think Fisico's record speaks for itself and it his more than honorable.
6. I also think Briatore's interest is to push for drivers who are contracted to him rather than others.....

Using your post if I may reply:

1. I don't argue with this because its your opinion and your are perfectly entitled to it. He isn't in my top five though. (See my post about "if it looks good it is good").
2. All of these I can agree with (although I take your word for the technical feedback). The marketing value is why I keep saying he's a nice bloke because he is.
3. I also agree here but I believe that a top driver would not only cope with this but use it to his advantage.
4. Jury is out on this point but I also get this impression.
5. Honourable maybe but not for me in any way outstanding.
6. As with 4 above I reserve my position but again Flav is (to me) more of a business man than a racer. But again if Fisi was on the list of most wanted by other teams he wouldn't have put himself back to what he'd had previously.

Anyway there's no need to apologise we've had plenty to discuss while you've been away.

[BootsOntheSide]

The most graphic indication of Fisichella's career up until now might be the opinions people held of his team-mates before and after they raced against him. It took Jenson a while to rebuild his reputation, while Taku hasn't completely among some people (even though he hasn't wrecked a BAR to this day). Indeed, the way Alonso has so comfortably out-performed Fisichella this seaosn might be the most impressive aspect of his season.

I think we've now found Giancarlo's level - better at dealing with difficult circusmtances than Jenson, faster than Taku or Ralf, but not as good as championship-capable guys like Alonso. The previous comparison of 1997 was unfair - Fisichella was defined as having finished Hockenheim when his car failed as a result of trying to get back to the pits with a puncture, while you were eager to mention the lap 1 Monaco 1996 incident in the wet but somehow forgot about the clear-track ptentially-victory-costing mistake Ralf made in Argentina.

[Inigo Montoya]

This is ridiculous! Flabio and the rest of his gang clearly don't give a about Fisi and his car.

[JeremySmith]

Poor Fisi, my goodness what is happening Flavio?

[jet]

Oooo,no not Fisi again WHY!!! When does it stops this bad luck!!!!

[John Turner]

If it weren't for bad luck, he'd have no luck at all (words of an old blues song - roughly!)

[Knowlesy]

Fisi is havig really poor luck now! He was driving rather odd in the GP though....

[Menelaos]

I don't know what's happening. Alonso will eventually have to come across this kind of luck too....

[ralf fan]

This really is getting freaky.... poor Fisi.....

[T0MAT01]

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

This is ridiculous! Flabio and the rest of his gang clearly don't give a about Fisi and his car.

What makes you say that?

I know Alonso is Flav's golden boy, and there were those rumors last year with Trulli, but does anyone honestly believe that Renault would purposly handicap one car just so it doesn't get in the way of the other?