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26 Mar 2024, 15:43 (Ref:4202890) | #76 | ||
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For example if you have a driver who has recently had a few incidents that were questionable but not investigated or punished. I can imagine there may be a natural and maybe subconscious tendency to place that drivers under a microscope. That a further incident that might otherwise not trigger examination might be examined. Sort of a "they are due for punishment" type of thing. There might even be the reverse in that more experienced drivers might get a bit of extra "benefit of doubt" applied to them. I think it's only human nature. The stewards are not robots. I am not going to pretend I would do a better job. Ideally... they would be robots and everything would be looked at with a very dispassionate and clear understanding as to when lines are crossed and with consistent, fair and proportional application of punishment. Richard |
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26 Mar 2024, 15:52 (Ref:4202893) | #77 | |||
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Unfortunately, as we are now learning every day and probably to our cost, robots, like artificial intelligence, can very easily be "trained" in ways that suit the "trainer". |
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26 Mar 2024, 16:58 (Ref:4202902) | #78 | ||
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Note... I don't think fully automated systems (AI, whatever you want to call them) are anywhere close to replacing race stewards. I do think the use of AI "assistance" will/should happen. Such as my prior older posts elsewhere regarding alerting for suspected track limit violations. Richard |
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26 Mar 2024, 21:47 (Ref:4202926) | #79 | ||
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I'm very interested in the coming races to see what happens when a driver makes an error chasing a car in front.
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28 Mar 2024, 01:36 (Ref:4203073) | #80 | ||
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I think we could look at Singapore last year, Imola 21' and Imola 20' (under safety car) as other examples. I wonder how many of the other 19 drivers would have crashed under the same circumstances? |
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28 Mar 2024, 05:56 (Ref:4203086) | #81 | |
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Russell wouldn't have crashed without Alonso doing what he did in front of him. So you can't say it's entirely down to Russell. That said I hope Alonso's penalty doesn't set a precedent where every time someone brakes early it will be investigated
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28 Mar 2024, 15:20 (Ref:4203166) | #82 | ||
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i cant recall where i read this...i think it was an Alonso quote suggesting that had there been tarmac there instead of gravel, there would not have been any investigation.
will go through my history to find it but an interesting take i thought. one of the things that stood out to me during this race was just how amazingly fast and nimble the cars looked so really hope they dont change the track because of this. safety first of course but... edit: https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/68649182 But Alonso said he was "surprised" by the decision on social media afterwards: "A bit surprised by a penalty at the end of the race regarding how we should approach the corners or how we should drive the race cars. At no point do we want to do anything wrong at these speeds. "I believe that without gravel on that corner, on any other corner in the world we will never be even investigated. In F1, with over 20 years of experience, with epic duels like Imola 2005/2006/Brazil 2023, changing racing lines, sacrificing entry speed to have good exits from corners is part of the art of motorsport. Last edited by chillibowl; 28 Mar 2024 at 15:32. |
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28 Mar 2024, 15:35 (Ref:4203170) | #83 | ||
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The Alonso/Russell incident now seems to cover many threads, but it needs repeating that the Stewards summing up of the incident is that they considered that Alonso's driving was potentially dangerous for whatever reason he did it.
I would also add to those that have said that Russell could and should have reacted quicker, that it must be born in mind that at the point when Alonso first braked, that Russell was just a half second behind him approaching the corner. The fact that in that short a distance, the Mercedes didn't clatter in to the back of the Aston Martin is a testament to how quick his reactions were. |
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28 Mar 2024, 15:40 (Ref:4203171) | #84 | |||
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(1) With tarmac and no crash, then it is a "No harm no foul" situation because no physical damage, no need to stop the race and so on. Of which, that is frankly ludicrous because clearly it impacts the following cars "race" and benefits the leading car by increasing the gap. (2) Things like this are more likely to be investigated if there is a resulting accident. With tarmac, no accident, probably no investigation. Of which I think many here (myself included) would somewhat agree with, but maybe not the conclusion he is looking for. Such as.. it shouldn't have been investigated? I "think" (hope) Alonso might have been referring to my second viewpoint? Text below from the stewards decision... Quote:
Do I think this sets a precedent that there will be more investigations and punishment for driver behavior? Probably not. If anything it might settle down some driver actions. I think if anything this sort of became a situation in which the stewards could use as an example of "beware drivers, if you play stupid games, you may win stupid prizes" Richard |
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28 Mar 2024, 15:44 (Ref:4203172) | #85 | ||
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Richard |
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28 Mar 2024, 22:57 (Ref:4203213) | #86 | ||
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Relive all the highlights of the 2024 Australian Grand Prix (Lego version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ9--VyTUJI |
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29 Mar 2024, 13:25 (Ref:4203293) | #87 | |||
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If he was braking 10m earlier to "sacrifice entry speed", I would agree with him. But he braked 100m earlier, went on the throttle, then braked again. He's being disingenuous. |
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2 Apr 2024, 15:01 (Ref:4203599) | #88 | ||
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I think if Alonso had braked 100M earlier then Russell would have flown past him or into him before the corner. Did Alonso lift the throttle or brake before the apex, quite possibly, but to me it didn't look like a brake test. I am no fan of Alonso either just fyi.
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2 Apr 2024, 15:07 (Ref:4203600) | #89 | |||
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I can only suggest that you read the Stewards' report in full on the FIA website. They had all the data from both of the cars and they didn't agree with you, I'm afraid. |
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2 Apr 2024, 15:37 (Ref:4203602) | #90 | ||
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Whatever the reason for Alonso slowing, it didn't affect Russell's entry to the corner, having looked at the video he had completed his braking normally, made the apex and lost the car entry to mid-corner, at that point in time, for me thats a driver error on Russell's part.
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2 Apr 2024, 16:21 (Ref:4203612) | #91 | ||
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It's not Russell's corner entry that is the problem. It is that he is too close to Alonso and looses enough aero grip from the front wing due to the level of dirty air that this causes him to go off. And he is closer to Alonso in the middle of the corner due to Alonso's erratic behavior/slowing (for whatever reasons) on his own corner entry. Richard |
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2 Apr 2024, 16:22 (Ref:4203613) | #92 | |||
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If that was really the case, that Alonso's erratic driving had no effect on what happened to Russell, the the team would have had a very good case to appeal the Stewards' decision. The very fact that they have accepted the penalty, the 20 seconds might have been acceptable but Alonso also lost two places because of it which may very well have a financial bearing at the end of the season. |
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2 Apr 2024, 17:57 (Ref:4203621) | #93 | |||
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I’m well aware that F1 cars rely on aero grip and what Alonso did was likely done to unsettle Russell, but for me at that point it’s just Russell who has lost it and he has failed to keep his car under control. I suspect that if Russell had just had a big oversteer moment and then caught the car there would be no discussion and no penalty, but the fact he dropped the car in a big way, does that mean a penalty is more warranted? Is it the action or the outcome that is scrutinised? Or both? If people are upset at Alonso I’d be far more outraged at the fact he has never shown any remorse or rescinded his “win” at Singapore 2008, which to me is a major blot on his character. Last edited by Sodemo; 2 Apr 2024 at 18:04. |
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2 Apr 2024, 18:35 (Ref:4203626) | #94 | ||
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Richard Last edited by Richard C; 2 Apr 2024 at 19:01. |
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2 Apr 2024, 18:37 (Ref:4203627) | #95 | ||
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Richard |
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2 Apr 2024, 19:25 (Ref:4203635) | #96 | |||
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Possibly you are overlooking the fact that Alonso admitted, and the data confirmed, that after his initial braking early - which again he admitted was his mistake - he went back on the accelerator. It is quite possible that Russell would have gone into the back of the Aston if Alonso hadn't hit the gas again and possibly his, Russells', reaction was super quick. We don't know, because the Stewards didn't mention it. Surely all this is really academic; Alonso has admitted he cocked up his approach to the corner, and he was desperately trying to put off Russell so as to avoid the inevitable immediately after they hit the straight and the DRS. |
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2 Apr 2024, 19:35 (Ref:4203636) | #97 | ||
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With this in mind, I'm of the opinion that he was going off the track regardless of Alonso's action. For me, this is still mostlu on Russell. Last edited by Beau2; 2 Apr 2024 at 19:41. |
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2 Apr 2024, 19:45 (Ref:4203639) | #98 | |||||||
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Sorry for multiple posts, but I replied quickly and I think I owe you a more complete reply.
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So where is the line drawn? I think there is a line, it is fuzzy and it is probably crossed more often than we think. I don't think the stewards are equipped (both in technology and manpower) to monitor, review and adjudicate all of these that might happen in a race. BUT... occasionally something comes to their attention. It might be particularly egregious or blatant, but without lasting damage or might be less overt but with the result of car damage, an off or even an accident. I think the stewards (and the regulations) strive to treat all behavior the same, but I think the level of attention any incident gets is driven by multiple factors. Such as how egregious was it, did it result in damage or an accident, etc. So unfortunately they are not able to really treat everything equal. So to your point, is it the action or the outcome? The rules say it is the action only. My personal opinion is that both end up being a factor. BUT! They will clearly indicate that it was the action that is being punished. I made this point earlier that they can't hint or say that "If you do <insert offensive behavior here> and there is no accident, you are all good" as they don't want to set the precident. I also said earlier I file it under the "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes". Basically drivers need to understand that if they are trying to be particularly clever in naughty ways, it may bite them. I also said earlier, I personally don't think Alonso was trying to crash out Russell. I do think he was trying to get Russell to sacrifice is speed and exit on that corner MORE than Alonso's slowing sacrificed his own speed and exit. That Alonso wanted to use his actions on corner entry to increase his gap on corner exit. When I say it like that, it sounds innocent and OK. Which is frankly how Alonso positioned this on Instragram. But the problem is that HOW Alonso was doing all of this was dangerous and erratic from the following car's perspective. Quote:
Richard |
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2 Apr 2024, 19:52 (Ref:4203640) | #99 | |
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2 Apr 2024, 20:27 (Ref:4203647) | #100 | |||
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It's certainly not in the Stewards' report which I would have thought they would have mentioned as it may well have been a contributing element. Oh, I should add that the Stewards also had all the data and telemetry fro Mercedes as well as from Aston Martin. I should also add that the report states that the data shows that Alonso also braked harder on that occasion than he had on any other lap. |
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