[Official] United States Grand Prix

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Understood, but can you selectively choose some items for scrutiny but not others?

It's difficult to think of a reason why not....

[Gerard C]

They do what they want to do. Knowing that the best scrutiner (if not spy) is you garage neighbour may be they get infos on the hush-hush mode. Hence targetted checks.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Then, for what possible reason, did you pose the question if you, supposedly, already knew the answer?

Because it was suggested that checking all cars for rule conformity wouldn't be a problem. Which is categorically not the case.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Because it was suggested that checking all cars for rule conformity wouldn't be a problem. Which is categorically not the case.

I don't know anyone on here that suggested that; all there was, was suggestions that a few things could be checked on all the field, whilst the major scrutineering of the 4 cars took place as is currently done.

I believe, although this may not be correct, that the fuel is checked on all cars. If so, it's not beyond the wit of the FIA to also do a few other easily done checks that do not require all the sophisticated equipment that a full check might require.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I don't know anyone on here that suggested that; all there was, was suggestions that a few things could be checked on all the field, whilst the major scrutineering of the 4 cars took place as is currently done.

I believe, although this may not be correct, that the fuel is checked on all cars. If so, it's not beyond the wit of the FIA to also do a few other easily done checks that do not require all the sophisticated equipment that a full check might require.

See below. It just isn't practical.

Originally Posted by S griffin

It's a good point. There's no reason why they can't check every car. It would cause less controversy if they did. Seems to be luck of the draw if your car is checked atm

[Richard C]

Does anyone know if there is a set period of time after the checked flag in which the cars remain available for post race questions? Sort of a post race parc ferme?

Or is it a case that once the established procedures (such as pumping out a fuel sample which I think is done for all cars?) are performed the cars are back to the teams and can be "touched" in a way that might invalidate many (not all) post race inspection questions. For example exactly when might a team remove and discard a used legality plank?

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Does anyone know if there is a set period of time after the checked flag in which the cars remain available for post race questions? Sort of a post race parc ferme?

Or is it a case that once the established procedures (such as pumping out a fuel sample which I think is done for all cars?) are performed the cars are back to the teams and can be "touched" in a way that might invalidate many (not all) post race inspection questions. For example exactly when might a team remove and discard a used legality plank?

Richard

Used to be a nominal time of an hour from memory but may be longer now. FIA still had to confirm to teams that cars were clear of Parc Ferme at the end of the allocated time period (which might have to be extended in some circumstances).

[Mike Harte]

Richard, have just re-read the 2023 Sporting Regulations, and all it says is that immediately following the end of the sprints and races, all cars, apart from the winner must proceed straight to parc fermé where they must remain untouched until an official instructs the competitors; the winner's car may be required to be present at the podium ceremony, after which it then goes to parc fermé. No time is given.

[Skam85]

Like random doping tests for athletes, it just isn't feasible to scrutineer every car after every race.

Random scruniteering is fine. It's worked since its inception, and the DSQs for cars failing it few and far between. Play on.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Like random doping tests for athletes, it just isn't feasible to scrutineer every car after every race.

Random scruniteering is fine. It's worked since its inception, and the DSQs for cars failing it few and far between. Play on.

Would you be still saying that if the two cars found to have not conformed to the rules had not been checked, but lets say a whistle-blower later leaked factual evidence that they did not conform.

In other words, knowing how motor racing teams over the decades have tried, often fairly successfully, to not adhere to the rules and regulations and got away with it. So, how do we know if that exists in F1 when the teams are responsible for declaring their cars comply with the regs, and may slightly bend the rules to their advantage. In the Brawn days at Ferrari, we know that some of their aerodynamic parts were a tad to big which obviously helped.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Would you be still saying that if the two cars found to have not conformed to the rules had not been checked, but lets say a whistle-blower later leaked factual evidence that they did not conform.

In other words, knowing how motor racing teams over the decades have tried, often fairly successfully, to not adhere to the rules and regulations and got away with it. So, how do we know if that exists in F1 when the teams are responsible for declaring their cars comply with the regs, and may slightly bend the rules to their advantage. In the Brawn days at Ferrari, we know that some of their aerodynamic parts were a tad to big which obviously helped.

As cars are randomly tested, maybe teams think running that risk is worth it?

[Richard C]

Thanks for the answer to my question.

Where I was going with this line of thought is... Due to whatever reason, you suspect cars are running too low. So you pull the first six cars to inspect, but you really think you might find one or two out of compliance. And due to the length of time required to do the inspection you release the remaining cars. But you then find all six are out of compliance and you DQ them all. Now you can't inspect the others and 7th becomes 1st, etc. But for all you know 7th and beyond had issues as well.

This gets to a point I think someone made earlier which is, if you find issues, how deep do you inspect other cars that will inherit positions. Is there even time to do this (root of my question earlier). I think there is no good answer for this. Also mentioned in this thread is the last time this particular problem (plank wear) happened was 1994. So very nearly 20 years ago. So maybe we can assume that while the occasional either purposeful or accidental offense might slip through, there is probably not a systemic problem going on.

You also have to wonder how over the years various issues were put in the spotlight. Did some FIA inspection detect some hint of smoke so they looked for fire, or is it more likely that most were someone else on the pitlane (as someone already pointed out) ringing up the FIA inspectors and saying... "Hey, look at X on car Y, I think they are doing Z".

Richard

[Richard C]

Hamilton stirring the pot...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/l...s-gp/10538275/

Firstly I've heard from several different sources that there were a lot of other cars that were also illegal

Can I use finger air quotes and say "sources"

But in general he seems quite unhappy about this in ways that are in sync with this thread. I mean, it wouldn't help him, but he wants more to go down with him.

Richard

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Hamilton stirring the pot...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/l...s-gp/10538275/


Can I use finger air quotes and say "sources"

But in general he seems quite unhappy about this in ways that are in sync with this thread. I mean, it wouldn't help him, but he wants more to go down with him.

Richard

peebee2 .. did you blab to Lewis about the other teams planks?? be honest!

In unrelated news, I just realised I have been on this forum for exactly 20yrs. I was in high school when I signed up. I'm old

[Tourer]

Thing to remember about the FIA and checking planks is that the FIA has live data (or at least data) from every car re bouncing - the FIA has this data as part of the solution that was brought in to manage "porpoising". I think that there was something mentioned about that when the news of the DQs first popped up. From what I understand, that data would show the severity and frequency of a car hitting the track surface.

I got the feeling that the info they saw from that data may have at least partially triggered the choice of cars to be checked. Turns out that the FIA tech dudes were right on the money. I guess if the data through the field had looked similar, more cars would have been checked and despite Lewis' sour grapes "sources" claim, it is likely that two cars looked abnormal and the leading cars were also checked for form's sake.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I don't know anyone on here that suggested that; all there was, was suggestions that a few things could be checked on all the field, whilst the major scrutineering of the 4 cars took place as is currently done.

I believe, although this may not be correct, that the fuel is checked on all cars. If so, it's not beyond the wit of the FIA to also do a few other easily done checks that do not require all the sophisticated equipment that a full check might require.

And every car is weighed too AFAIK. Surely they can check the floor while they are at it? There has been a can of worms opened here. To be fair the FIA has explained that time is limited after the race to check the cars before they are given back to the teams, but I wonder if any teams are breathing a secret sigh of relief knowing their car wasn't checked?

[billy bleach]

What a farce putting these poor rookies out in a live session. More naval gazing F1 nonsense. I know it’s a cost ( drop in the Ocean) but wouldn’t they be better served running on the Monday after the race or set up more young driver tests that could become events in there own right?.

[Teretonga]

Rather than go around in circles, there needs to be some practical alternatives to the present practice.

So if the checks are dome in a number of areas on the podium cars why is it not possible to hold the top ten cars or top six cars in park ferme, until the checks on the podium winners are completed.

Then if there are podium cars to be DQed, to check the replacements for the same issues the podium cars were DQed.

Yes, if you wanted to be pedantic about it then you could check all the cars down to tenth place, but you should also recognize that if there was a multitude of cars going out with say for example, plank non-conformity on a bumpy circuit, then was there a common issue regarding that regulation that affected all the competitors to some degree so that issue needed to be addressed.

Whatever the solution there needs to be a rethink that meets the needs of event, to be seen as conforming to the regulations in an even handed manner, and something that if the circuit has thrown up an issue then that also provides some flexibility to reconsider whether any of the competitors should be disqualified for that issue at that event and then a redemptive solution made regarding that issue for future events.

Developing regulations and an enforcement process that not only holds up the standards and intention of the regulations but is also fair and evenhanded and allows progress in regulation development that enhances the sport and governance processes, is in the interests of all the competitors, the regulator, and the commercial rights holder.

Any other view isnt benefiting the sport at all.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Rather than go around in circles, there needs to be some practical alternatives to the present practice.

So if the checks are dome in a number of areas on the podium cars why is it not possible to hold the top ten cars or top six cars in park ferme, until the checks on the podium winners are completed.

Then if there are podium cars to be DQed, to check the replacements for the same issues the podium cars were DQed.

If I read the Sporting regs correctly which I did re-read, it is only the winner's car, not the entire podium, plus 3 randomly selected cars that are subject to scrutineering after the race.

[Mike Harte]

If my memory isn't playing tricks on me, which it could well be doing, the reason that all the drivers are weighed it to do with their well-being. I think that this was introduced a few years ago to stop drivers going to extreme measures to be as light as possible, which was sometimes not good for their health.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

If my memory isn't playing tricks on me, which it could well be doing, the reason that all the drivers are weighed it to do with their well-being. I think that this was introduced a few years ago to stop drivers going to extreme measures to be as light as possible, which was sometimes not good for their health.

I thought it was primarily to ensure that the driver and car still met the minimum weight limit after the race.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I thought it was primarily to ensure that the driver and car still met the minimum weight limit after the race.

There is that, BJ, which was already in place but this became another requirement. Prior to this, teams encouraged their drivers to be as light as possible which then allowed the engineers to place ballast to meet the minimal weight requirements where it was the least detrimental to the cars performance. I believe that drivers now have to achieve a height to weight ratio.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Fantasy claimed as fact, with a weak disclaimer. Complete nonsense as usual.

When did weighing of all the cars stop, 1973?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

When did weighing of all the cars stop, 1973?

Prior to 2017, every classified car was weighed.
From 2017 onwards, it changed to 'may' be weighed.

[Adam43]

Tedious bickering posts deleted. Well some of them.

Some others that pointed out they were tedious got lost in the clear out.