"4 wheels off" - discussion

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Piglet

I can't remember what BRSCC do, I think they run new driver briefings but someone else may know better.

It's an MSA requirement - Blue Book, Q4.2.1

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

It's an MSA requirement - Blue Book, Q4.2.1

And indeed, yes they (BRSCC) do....!

I have come to realise that some of our problems have been caused by the fact our series runs with different clubs each meeting which is probably not usual. Each club has slightly different methods, rules and ways and, becuase of that, it is all very confusing when you first start out.

Fortunately we seem to have sorted it mostly now.........hopefully we can help out the new guys this year!

[SWCRacing]

Isn't that covered by the video that's included with the "Go Racing" pack?

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

Isn't that covered by the video that's included with the "Go Racing" pack?

it could be done better

[Ian Sowman]

Someone raised the series co-ordinator point, which I meant to. Definitely in their remit, I would say.

I was interested by Graeme's points about few/no drivers having race tuition - but why the hell not? If you took up golf or tennis, you would probably have lessons if you wanted to be any good - so why not motor racing? I would imagine that it would result in big performance improvements in most cases - certainly more than just pounding around in testing lap after lap (as Caterham drivers are reputed to do ).

[graeme]

I've never had any tuition -and I'm brillant Dunno - I'm keener on figuring things out for myself in any sport (which maybe why I do things like motor racing, rock climbing, cycle racing, sliding sports, etc) rather than golf, tennis or flying (I'd be an awful pilot). I'm happy to read & take advice, but not much bothered on being "coached". Tuition is also fairly pricey (admitedly less costly than crashing...). I have seen drivers spend massive amounts of time & money onm tuition and still be fairly poor!

[Tal Aras]

Prahaps there should be an invite to new drivers to come along to a marshals training day.They'll get to see it from our point of view and could help with the training, for example by playing the driver stuck in a gravel trap and working with us to get the car out under it's own steam.

On the subject of (new) drivers briefings, where the double yellow flag procedures at Brands explained on the MSVR weekend. Flagging from Post 25 I did wonder how many drivers would know that a stationary yellow there means there's a good chance that there's a live snatch going on at Paddock.

[PipSqueak111]

Originally Posted by Tal Aras

Prahaps there should be an invite to new drivers to come along to a marshals training day.They'll get to see it from our point of view and could help with the training, for example by playing the driver stuck in a gravel trap and working with us to get the car out under it's own steam.

Most new drivers should be aware that the invite is there to attend marshal training days, or at least to spend a day on the bank, as they can get a couple of signatures on their licence for these marshalling days.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Wandering a little away from marshalling matters here, but surely TT's questions ought to be the remit of the series co-ordinator to explain what's expected of their drivers and to offer assistance? Which kind of takes us back to the BMW document.

[edited]Piglet dealt with that so much better and with much more knowledge[/edit]

But your version was much shorter and far less arsier than mine

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Piglet

But your version was much shorter and far less arsier than mine

I must be slipping - it's usually the other way around!

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Yes we did spend a long time in RC - but what I didn't realise was that "constituted" a "New Driver" briefing. (It did...right?)

No, not really because MSVR don't run specific new driver briefings the sheet of new driver notes that Nina was given was her new driver briefing. I don't have a copy to hand but I suspect it finishes with something along the lines of "come and ask if you have any queries". You did the right thing by finding a Clerk and asking the questions you had - I think I'm right in saying that Nina had missed her series briefing though aren't I?

Don't forget as I said before, a new driver's briefing is for drivers new to that configuration of circuit, it is likely to deal with location of snatch vehicles, position of safety car etc. It is absolutely NOT a novice driver's briefing. I've seen very eminent LM competing driver's at new driver's briefings because they haven't raced on that particular circuit before.

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

I hadn't until now really thought of it as a bad experience - but I was just beginning to wonder if it was "unusual"..."unusual" perhaps being a better description than "bad".

It just seems that no matter how much I thought we had prepared - somehow we found ourselves completely unprepared....if you see what I mean?

I suspect the early days of anyone's racing career feel bad, there is a huge amount to learn and it's easy to get things wrong. I appreciate that you are trying to give constructive feedback but it is coming across as if you are just looking for others to blame for your lack of preparation.

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

I think Woolley has hit the mark with his posting below about the Series itself helping out. I have since found out that most Series/Championships produce publications or other help for new drivers. I have seen the Locost one and the ones posted here. Sadly our series did not do any such thing at the time - I think, looking back, that is what was missing big time.

You could though have walked into any awning at the circuit and chatted to other driver's about the things you aren't sure about. You posted on here at the time of Nina's first race, there are loads of people who would have been pleased to have given you info. You seem to be focusing on it being for other's to give you information rather than for you to learn for yourself. I appreciate that "you don't know what you don't know" but given you had a marshalling background and as you say were very familiar with the Blue Book, things should have been a bit clearer. I imagine that there are acres and acres of You Tube videos with this information?

I suspect from the MSA's point of view, they have a course that turns out Nat B novice driver's. It's up to each individual to consider whether they then have the skills and knowledge to race. The sign on declaration confirms that they consider themselves fit to race.

[brickkicker]

Originally Posted by Piglet

I suspect the early days of anyone's racing career feel bad, there is a huge amount to learn and it's easy to get things wrong. I appreciate that you are trying to give constructive feedback but it is coming across as if you are just looking for others to blame for your lack of preparation.

This seems to have wondered a long way from the topic however as last year was my first year racing I thought id throw my two pence in.
I think its a bit unfair to say TT is looking for others to blame for lack of preparation. The first race meeting is a bit of a mad time, and there are lots of things going on and as organised as you try and be its hard to juggle all the bits. As a new driver you have to go to the new driver briefing. This in itself can be a problem, for example at our first meeting this year there are 4 new driver briefings, the first one is the same time as sign on, the second is the same time as scutineering, the 3rd is just before quali and the final one is during quali, what do you do? And to be honest the best ones we had all year were those that just gave you a bit of paper to take away and read.
To be honest I cant believe that more new drivers done run out of fuel as with everthing else going on how do they ever remember to put it in

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

The section the Blue Book doesn't have is common sense

[Terrible-Tones]

Right OK Enough.....

Most importantly, if I have offended anyone, I really didn't mean too, and I am mortified if that is the case and you have my apologies.

However, I am feeling a bit picked on and ganged up on at the moment so lets get this clear and in our defence...

1) All I said initially was that I thought the ARDS could be better..and it can be! I feel it could contain a brief overview of your first race day and the three or four things you must make sure you do. NDB Tranx etc.

2) We found it difficult and stressful (Perhaps I had previously used the wrong words like "bad" - stressful is a better descriptive) at our first race as it was all new. My point is I AM A MARSHAL and I KNEW the circuit and the staff, and the BB, but we still found it really difficult....so how bad is it for someone who wasn't in that position? (I don't recall if the race at Silverstone was MSVR or not?). I am simply idly wondering if that could be improved in any way. Perhaps not - but worth talking about, which is what we are all doing.

3) I have never complained about lack of support from Coc or staff or umbrella club, in fact the opposite is so true.....we have always had help when we have asked, no problems there. The problem is knowing what question you need to ask in the first place. If you don't know something exists full stop - how do you know to ask about it...?

4) In our discussions it turns out that maybe most Series's themselves put together more stuff for new drivers than the absolute zilch that came from our club. This would appear to have been the vital element missing and we have gone back to our club with it. It is being fixed. So this discussion thread has worked, in that it has made me realise what it was exactly that did need improving and something positive has come from it.

5) No WE DID NOT miss the briefing for our series....they just never give one! We thought we had missed it because it was on the timetable as "TBA"...(what use is that?) hence our panic...but there wasn't one(and never is). Learnt that one the hard way......!

6) We are in unusual circumstances as we race with differing umbrella clubs...all doing their own thing....why aren't things like NDB standard as it seems clear enough in BB (MSVR paper one is much the best btw)?

7) We didn't just sit in our paddock space and wait for stuff to happen - we did talk to and ask other drivers, and they helped out as much as they could when they were not busy with their own stuff! One in particular helped out very much with sign-on. Having spoken to him again a few months later - we found he did not even know NDB's existed......and I suspect/know there are others....so there we go..QED!

8) I was as prepared as I could be for our first race. I cannot see with hindsight what else I could have done. I am not looking to lay blame in any way and that is a totally unfair comment. Those knowing me will probably confirm that I am always happy to take responsibility when I have made an error (quite a lot!!). They will also know that I just wouldn't turn up and hope all is well, it is not in my nature to be blase in that way. Anyone reading this thread will think we turned up as a right shower. This is not true at all and that also would be an unfair judgement. As Piglet has mentioned I knew who to ask and did so when I had a questions.....and I can say, with absolute confidence, the CoC and their reps were easily approachable, helpful and nice to boot. It turns out there was other stuff I needed to ask, but did not realise or know that I needed to ask it!!

I am merely pointing out it was a stressful morning trying to get things sorted and not really knowing the ins and out. I was merely trying to give some feedback. Experience is the great teacher....we are OK now and can find our way, and I'm pretty sure we know what to ask and where to go. We have some friends starting in the series at Mallory next weekend (#25 black car). I am going to make damn sure they know what to take, where to go and what they need to do....so that they don't feel quite as lost like we did. All I wanted to point out was that we had a stressful time (not unusual as Brickicker confirms) and that I felt it might have been made easier....surely that is worth talking about even if nothing comes of it?


Gosh - this is as off topic as we can get - interesting exchanges though.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Piglet

I suspect from the MSA's point of view, they have a course that turns out Nat B novice driver's. It's up to each individual to consider whether they then have the skills and knowledge to race. The sign on declaration confirms that they consider themselves fit to race.

Yes good point, but if those individuals are new, and have nothing to measure it against, exactly how would they judge that they have the correct skills and knowledge set to race?

[numbersix]

Any chance of getting this tread back on topic??

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Any chance of getting this tread back on topic??

Yes quite! 4 wheels off thing - why are different series treating it differently, seems to be the overall question if I remember?

[m1fcf]

It may have been discussed e;sewhere in this thread, but would it not be prudent to report any four-wheel off activity but *only* where a percieved advantage has been gained?

Where a driver overshoots a corner (entering the complex at Thruxton for example) simply because of too much speed, then as long as he does not tag an opponent, then should it get recorded? Obviously the contact between the two cars is reported if it occurs, as would "FWO" if the dirver managed to make up a place or two.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

It may have been discussed e;sewhere in this thread, but would it not be prudent to report any four-wheel off activity but *only* where a percieved advantage has been gained?

Where a driver overshoots a corner (entering the complex at Thruxton for example) simply because of too much speed, then as long as he does not tag an opponent, then should it get recorded? Obviously the contact between the two cars is reported if it occurs, as would "FWO" if the dirver managed to make up a place or two.

I know nothing about observing so this is a genuine question - what if a driver goes wide on the same corner several laps (say SEARS at Snett) but he is on his own - would you see that as an advantage for instance, and against what are you measuring? I have no clue how you would report - if at all - that particular case, and I am interested to try and understand what obs would do in that scenario?

[The Fat Clerk]

As a Clerk I want to know of any & all cases of '4 wheels off' whether in traffic or not.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

As a Clerk I want to know of any & all cases of '4 wheels off' whether in traffic or not.

OK Clear enough - so the answer is simply - don't go 4 wheels off at any time then (unless it is accidental)!

[bravo]

I watched the 750 motor club's first event at Snett on Motors TV last night. Apart from it being one of the most bad-tempered races I've seen for a while, the whole grid went wide at Sears, at some points 2/3 abreast, with even the car closest to the track still 4WO.

Nothing seems to have been done as even the worst offenders, including a certain car which was seen to be 'leaning' onto the car trying to overtake, still took up their qualified position on the grid.

Perhaps fines were levied, but surely grid penalties should be handed out first?

[The Fat Clerk]

Each club has it's own policies.............

[Ian Sowman]

At that meeting drivers were briefed as to what would and would not be allowed at Sear corner (as I referred to earlier in the thread) - but simply, four wheels over onto the tarmac at Sear was not automatically an issue as the use of that part of the circuit has become common practice over a number of years, and indeed is advised by instructors. Seems pragmatic and reasonable to me.

As it happens, a number of drivers were penalised during the course of the weekend, based on the reports of the DSO.

[The Fat Clerk]

Sounds fair to me.