bio's tracks

[bio]

Well, I guess it's time for a new one.

I've got some really old looking retro ones I've been polishing for some time now. The first one, located near the outskirts of Perth, Australia is a classic one. Not purpose designed and built but a circuit of old dirt country roads later asphalted to become one of Australia's first racing tracks. The trackline was modified a couple of times to include some straight sections because the original line had not a single straight section in it. There are no significant long straights now either, the longest one (the S/F straight) being a couple of meters shy of 600 meters. I swear I didn't realize until I finished how it actually resembles Spa...

The track, originally more than 11 kilometers long had been shortened considerably and now is 5,285 meters (3.3 miles) long. It runs clockwise.

There are moderate altitude changes throughout the course. The S/F straight is flat and about horizontal. At the end there's a mid-speed right turn where the track starts to drop gradually and keeps ding so thru the next section of two fast-paced curves that conclude in a right hairpin that's the lowest point of the track. A long ascending section comes that divides in two parts: first a curvy part of two fast curves and a left hairpin and then a much faster part of two straights connected by a right sweeper. This section leads to a mid-speed right corner that's the highest point of the track. From here to the S/F straight it's a curvy but still rather pacey descent that leads to the last corner of the track, a rather tight right hairpin.

[Lustigson]

One word: phenomenal.

[shambles]

Yeah very good.

Reminds me of Spa to look at.

[bio]

Thx both of you.

Shambles, as you could read it, you're not alone

bio

[nickyf1]

OMG, that is amazing Very nice work as always

[bio]

Thx, nicky,
almost half as good as your new avatar

bio

[ScotsBrutesFan]

I think the circuit is brilliant together with the excellent graphical presentation.

But I also see minor edits that would make it equally good if run in the reverse direction.

[werner]

Mmmm, I've a few remarks.

Driving:
+ most of the circuit looks very challenging. Especially the downhill-section into the last hairpin must be a thrilling ride.

Racing:
- There is little room for overtaking. Maybe in the last corner it is possible, but with the bends it is easy to defend into the corner.

Safety:
-I see issues with to little run-off in the 2 hairpins. Especially the last one, with it's downhill high speed entrance. I see a mayor problem when you use the shortcut instead of the first hairpin. The corner will then ben very fast, and a bridge is where a massive graveltrap should be.

Spectating:
- Spectators at the grandstand can't see much more than just the pits.
-The first of the 2 bridges blocks the view of many spectators.

Cost:
- I count 5 tunnels and 2 bridges to the infield, an infield with just 1 stand!

[werner]

I made a revision to meet my own criticism. Unfotunately I had to change the downhill flow a bit, 2 of those corners are still there though. I wanted to change the pits, so that spectators at the main grandstand get to see something. Now they can see the first and the last corner completely, and the right half can see the hairpin, while the left half can see the exit of the big 180deg. corner. If they are tired of that, the stands witch overlooks the western part of the track is close.
This alteration made sure that overtaking in the first hairpin will be easier.
The removal of the old grandstand made the second hairpin safer.
I removed several useless tunnels and bridges, the 2 shown are the only ones left, although you might consider a pedestrian tunnel at the end of the s/f straight.

[nickyf1]

Originally Posted by bio

Thx, nicky,
almost half as good as your new avatar

bio

haha, true. Nothing will ever top Father Jack and his brick!

Nice edit, although I liked the flow of the esses in the original.

[bio]

werner,

your edit is perfect - just how the new version of a "traditional" track should be. So, if that imaginery Perth track is ever gonna receive a facelift it's the perfect plan.

All you're saying is right - about the inadequate gravel traps at the end of the hairpins, the too many tunnels (although i put them there on purpose, figured it's cheaper than a bridge plus it's a slanted terrain anyways), but there are two points I don't fully agree with.

- the Grand Stand. Let me cite here a conversation between SBF and me (in this very topic, comments #11 and 12) .:

bio:
I was thinking about it - I mean the positioning of the Grand Stand.

It, of course, must be along the finish straight. Now, the finish straight is usually either flanked by a grand stand on both sides or a stand on one side and the main building - that usually includes the paddocks - on the other side. In the case of either the spectators on the grand stand can't really see anything apart from the finish straight - plus maybe the entry and exit corners. The majority of the track goes either behind the main building or behind the grand stand - neither area of which is visible from the grand stand.So, how can I achieve that the visitors there get more for their money than the cars racing past the finish line?

SBF:
The people on the start finish straight pay to see the exactly that ... the start and the finish.

That was my leading principle for placing the Grand Stand ever since. And, sincerely, I still think it's right.

- The bridges. I cannot see that much of crowd missing that much of action because of the bridges. In fact this is the first track where I paid attention of placing the bridges so they don't block out the view. I guess from all the stands a considerable portion of the track is visible and what the bridges block out is minimal. Of course that minimal could be reduced to zero by applying tunnels there also but I didn't want to put tunnels at the lowest section of the track - hence the tunnels.

bio

[bio]

SBF,
gotcha! I meant this track to go the opposite direction

(joking)

bio

[werner]

The first bridge definitaly blocks the view of the stands at the side of the straightisch part just in front of it. And it blocks just one of the most interesting corners in that section.

I always try to get at least 2 corners in the view of the grandstandseats. The way to do that is to make sure the last and the first corner go to the right when the grandstand is on the left of the track and the other way round.

BTW, I always assume a bridge is less expensive than a tunnel, but I have no idea if that is true, or the opposite. What I know is that a long bridge or tunnel is more expensive than a short one, so I try to keep them as short as possible.

[bio]

I have a vague recollection of tunnels being cheaper, but I'm not sure either. I was deeper into the subject when I was designing my fantasy city and was polishing the railway system - but that was like 2 years ago.

As for the Grand Stand. Your layout differs from mine in this respect in one thing: the viewers on the right end of the stand can see the first slight corner - that's not so much a corner than a slight bend so probably not the venue of grand action. Like 75% of your Grand Stand see just the same as my grand standers: the S/F straight. Don't see much of an improvement in that.

bio

PS: forgot something yesterday: you mention costs and the too many tunnels. Of course you're right in saying costs matter. They do. But in this scenario it looks a bitz different: according to the background story it's a really old track that started off as a dirt track and the tunnels were not built at once but throughout the years. They, of course,have their maintainance cost, though.

bio

[werner]

As shown on the attachement most of the spectators at my grandstand can see either the hairpin completely, or the big 180 deg. bent. The part that's still grey would probably be a bit quiter during races, because you cannot see more than you suggested. But thats only a small part. Maybe if you make the northern part of the boxes only 1 storey high, more people on the grandstand can see the 180deg., especially since its a high point at you track.
And, as I explained before, if the spectators think they see to little, jsut move to the stands nearby that overlook the western part, as you can see they hve a great view of a hole loop, and having the cars accelerating out of the hairpin just under their noses. When the finisch is in sight a small walk back would ensure you can still see the finisch.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

I don't want to take this thread any further away from Bio's brilliant design, but in response to Werner's sight lines...

Realistically sitting in a grandstand the range of view is only going to be approximately 50 degrees to the left or right..110 panarama.
Anything more and your view is going to be blocked by the people next to you. ... Watch a crowd in a seated stadium and people begin to stand to see over the people further along once the object moves beyond that approximate 110 range. A football stadium is a clear example.

This is one of the reasons why grandstand placement is a comprimise between getting as close to the circuit and being far enough away to give more than 1.5 seconds of view as the car passes at upto 200mph.

On your sight lines, those at the extreme green end, maybe as few as 5 or 10 colums of seats, would get the full view you have indicated.
The mid stand Red sight line is probably accurate, though the lower one would only be visable to those in the final colum of seats.
The upper Blue sight line, is probably a little narrow for most, and could be edged a little closer to the bridge, however the lower one would again only be visable to those on the final colum of seats in that stand.

In my own designs, I prefer several smaller grandstands that "face the action" so that a corner a little of the approach and some of the exit can be seen. If need be place several smaller ones at an angle to each other so that more seats are "facing the action" but might comprimise the approach or exit views for those sitting at the extreme edges.

[bio]

I most definitely welcome these exchanges of ideas and views. These are the kinds of threads I've learnt a lot from ever since I'm here and am eager to learn as much as I can. Especially in situations like this, when I can accept most of what either side says.

So, everyone, feel free to join in and share your views - that's the way we'll get better.

bio

[Yannick]

Nice. Very nice. In fact, it's a ginger ;-)
I like both the original and werner's update very much.

[bio]

I see werner's edit as the future of my original design. There was a certain emphasis here on the "traditional" nature of the track - traditional tracks tend to withstand trends and changes in track design philosophies. But eventually these traditional tracks will give in - just like this Perth track. And then it could very well look like werner's edit.

bio

[AU N EGL]

Elevation changes? Where are the hills, if any? and what about "the line" ?

[bio]

AU N GEL,

noticed the last, colour code map?

bio

[AU N EGL]

Very cool.

This would be a VERY fast track.

Ok so when do we get to race on it??

[bio]

I can't find Bernies phone number but I'll ask him

bio

[lavenlaar]

Bio - that track at Perth couldnt come at a better time ! The Australian V8 Supercars (VESA) have decided to cease racing at Barbagallo (outskirts of Perth). Put this forward to them. Have you modelled this on existing ground?

[bio]

Sadly not at all. Just picked a venue off the top of my head

bio