Lola T360

[Gerald Swan]

Here's another shot of Ken that I took at the '74 British GP.



Gerald.

http://www.lolaheritage.co.uk

[swift]

Cracking photo, must tell Dad to have look at that one!

You get a good idea from that shot just how far back the rear was mounted and how forward the nose was. Dad always referred to the car in its "long" form!

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by swift

Cracking photo, must tell Dad to have look at that one!

You get a good idea from that shot just how far back the rear was mounted and how forward the nose was. Dad always referred to the car in its "long" form!

Just looks like it is set up for sprinting!

[swift]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Just looks like it is set up for sprinting!

Now there's an idea!! All I need to do is sell the Formula Ford and go out and buy an Atlantic! What I wouldn't give to have a go in of those fantastic cars.

Seriously though I've been meaning to get hold of the guy who used to look after Dad's cars and see if he can remember any interesting bits info about the Lola. For example, after Ken wrote the car off at Silverstone in 1974 and had a new car built up around a new tub, was the chassis plate swopped over? Or was it given a new one?

I'll let you know how I get on

[tedwentz]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

And time for a periodic, but serious, update of T360 history

HU7 [White] Nov 74 to Planer Intl for Ted Wentz, 1975 British season. Destroyed in testing accident by Roy James, at Oulton, Sept 75 and replaced by HU18

Chris

This is a great website!

In the interest of complete accuracy T360 HU7 was sold to David Mill's company Planners International in November of 74 for Thruxton then the 75 Atlantic season. It was pretty much written off in a testing accident at Silverstone the following September by Roy James who had recently been a guest of Her Majesty for his part in the Great Train Robbery. Fortunately Roy wasn't injured. I still have the instrument panel for that car on my garage wall. Lola's Bob Marston has the steering wheel, but who knows what happened to the rest of it.

T460 HU15 sponsored by Swan Lager was actually a works-owned car until the end of the 1976 season when it was sold to a customer after winning the Indylantic championship.

While I'm at it, March 74B-1 was sold to Mill's Planners International in November of 1973 for the 1974 F Atlantic championships. Planners had secured the Wella sponsorship for the 1973 FF series and for the 74 and 75 British F Atlantic seasons.

Hope this helps.

[allenbrown]

Welcome Ted!

[Bryan Miller]

T360-HU 8 is for sale on www.race-cars.com

[Ralph Hume]

I was the mechanic on this car when Nigel Clarkson / Richard Scott drove it. Lola did their testing at Silverstone so the car went well there but was slow on a handling circuit. We tweeked the rear wing to get more angle on it & made the splitter for under the nose. This really made a big difference but it still needed more downforce on the front. For the last race we ran in it we bolted 15 kg of of lead in the footwell. Richard put it on pole at Thruxton in this form. I then built up a March 722 special which had the Lola wing out the back & a 732 nose spaced out the front similar to whats been done to the Lola. The March went really well & I can imagine how well the Lola would have gone as shown in the photo. It looks really good. We were testing at Snetterton & Eric Broadley was there. He saw the splitter & other mods we had done & told me to take that "all that **** off". From photos I have seen it looks like our splitter became standard kit.

Ralph Hume

[swift]

Great to hear more info about the development on the T360. From your post Ralph do I understand that you had left Lola by the time that Ken took the car over?

[Ralph Hume]

No I never worked for Lola. I was working for Vern Schuppan & we initially ran a March for Nigel Clarkson. Nigel decided to get a new car so we for some reason to choose the T360. Then we meet Richard Scott via Geoff Richardson whose engines we used & Richard did some testing & raced the car a few times. The worst thing I remember about the car was it was difficult to reinstall the engine due to having to line up all the tubes attached to the engine. I spent ages trying to find a way to line everthing up but never did. It was always a matter of making it fit.

[Chris Townsend]

Ralph
Welcome, and thanks for some interesting and informative posts
Was the car you ran for Clarkson Vern's original March 722?

Chris

[Ralph Hume]

No it was Chris Cramers ex hill climb car. Don't know the chassis number. Nigel did 3 or 4 races & it was replaced by the Lola. The 722 was then sold to a guy in the Philippines. Verns 722 was updated for 1973 with a wide nosed body kit developed by Dennis Falconer & raced in this form in England & the Far East. This body was great on handling circuits but was slow on fast ones. Was on the front row of an F2 race at Oulton Park & at the next race at Hockenhiem we struggled for straight line speed. This body kit further developed in 74 to narrow nose & wings & did a few Atlantic races in this form. At the end of the year fitted a modified March 732 body & narrow track 732 suspension. We spaced the nose forward about 300mm & added a splitter but retained the side radiators. At the back we fitted a tweaked Lola T360 wing. The first race we did was at Macau. Out of the box it was great & Vern put it on pole & won the race. The car stayed at Macau & was raced in subsequent years by guests of Mr Teddy Yip who owned the car. Drivers include Alan Jones & Roberto Moreno. I believe the car is still in his car collection. With Vern it was a great car / driver combination. I wouldn't mind $ 100 for every hour I spent on that car during 72 to 74.

Ralph

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Ralph Hume

Verns 722 was updated for 1973 with a wide nosed body kit developed by Dennis Falconer & raced in this form in England & the Far East.
Ralph

Was this the car in the Yellow Pages livery in 1972?

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by Ralph Hume

No it was Chris Cramers ex hill climb car. Don't know the chassis number. Nigel did 3 or 4 races & it was replaced by the Lola. The 722 was then sold to a guy in the Philippines. Verns 722 was updated for 1973 with a wide nosed body kit developed by Dennis Falconer & raced in this form in England & the Far East. This body was great on handling circuits but was slow on fast ones. Was on the front row of an F2 race at Oulton Park & at the next race at Hockenhiem we struggled for straight line speed. This body kit further developed in 74 to narrow nose & wings & did a few Atlantic races in this form. At the end of the year fitted a modified March 732 body & narrow track 732 suspension. We spaced the nose forward about 300mm & added a splitter but retained the side radiators. At the back we fitted a tweaked Lola T360 wing. The first race we did was at Macau. Out of the box it was great & Vern put it on pole & won the race. The car stayed at Macau & was raced in subsequent years by guests of Mr Teddy Yip who owned the car. Drivers include Alan Jones & Roberto Moreno. I believe the car is still in his car collection. With Vern it was a great car / driver combination. I wouldn't mind $ 100 for every hour I spent on that car during 72 to 74.

Ralph

Ralph, many thanks! The things you learn. The Cramer car was 723-12 ex Jarier F3. Jeremy Jackson noted the chassis number on Cramer's car in 1973.
One of the reasons I asked was that for this to be Vern's regular car would have meant some serious shuttling around the globe between races, and also changing the bodywork which looked very different.
However, I wonder if Clarkson always used the Cramer car.
I have a programme with notes by our own Adam Ferrington that has chassis 40 written in for the race at Oulton on 5 May 1974, and a report in Motoring News or Autosport describes it as Schuppan's old car at Mallory 23 June [though that could simply be an assumption]

You are right about 722-40, a real champion's car, driven at Macau by Jones, Moreno and Derek Daly, as well as by Vern.

Chris

[Ralph Hume]

Steve,
Yes it was in Yellow Pages livery. Later in the year it became white when we started using it in F2 with the different body. Was run in 72 with twin cam, 1600cc BDA & 2 ltr Amon BDA. That was a good engine.

Ralph

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Ralph Hume

Steve,
Yes it was in Yellow Pages livery. Later in the year it became white when we started using it in F2 with the different body. Was run in 72 with twin cam, 1600cc BDA & 2 ltr Amon BDA. That was a good engine.

Ralph

Check out the March 722 thread.

[Jimamber]

Hello

Does anyone know an history of t360 hu-08

I have been offered the car it is in the uk and has been on store for about 15 years.It has provence that it is the original.
The one that was advertised as hu-08 in the States is a copy and not an original. I have been in touch with the advertiser who confirmed that they picked hu- 08 because it appeared to be missing from any history.

jim

[Chris Townsend]

Jim

I think that it would be good to hear the provenance, and indeed to see the documentation that supports it.
HU8 was sold in the US, going to Carl Haas as early as August 1974. It was one of only two early T360s with a red gel coat. [The only other red car is HU15 which has a traced history]
The gel coat suggests that it should either be the car of Bobby Rahal or Robert Young in period, though it could be resprayed.
However, there is extensive documentation for Rahal's car as HU9, which he now owns again, in the form of invoices from Haas and Lola. Also, Rahal did not decide on a Lola until after a visit to England after the American season had ended - that is well after the delivery of HU8 to America. Furthermore, Rahal's car was specially constructed by Lola because he specified certain non-stock options on the car. HU9 has a shipping date of late November 1974 which accords perfectly with Rahal's UK trip.

My hunch is that this was Young's car: he's still around in Colorado, I think, as his family is big in banking there. [If anyone is still big in banking these days...]

HU8 was offered for sale with chassis no and called 'ex Rahal' by Steve Torrance, Victory Lane, Jan 91, p. 54. Torrance, I believe, was from Texas.

It's easier to say things about provenance than it is to prove them, in the form of bills of sale, invoices and period observations, and I frankly don't believe the claim for HU8 to be Rahal's car unless there is some very hard evidence.

Chris

[driftwood]

chris
privvy to the car in question here
1 what T360 cars raced in ireland?
2 where are they now

[Dan Rear]

Drifty, I don't think any T360s were based in Ireland, so UK based cars would be the only ones in period. 2 T460s were though, or 1 + the T462, ex-TT and Alo respectively.

[driftwood]

thats what im looking to hear as 1 car is "floatin" around!!!!

[Chris Townsend]

I struggle to find any T360 that might have ended up in Ireland with the exception of the remains of HU5 after Martin Mansell crashed it in 1979.

There are so many T360s in different ownership in USA and Canada in 1976 that, even accounting for sales between some owners in the year, the entire production, other than HU5, HU18 [Trimmer's early '76 car] and the destroyed HU7, and including the Ken Bailey car, must have been there.

Total T360 production is 20 cars, not including the jig model sold as AU1 in 1977 to Andrew Meidecke. By 1976 two are left in UK and a further one is destroyed, leaving 17

In 1976 USA there are the following running T360s

1 Phil Threshie [California] might be HU16 ex Gloy
2 John Weakley [California]
3 Larry Bergman [California] might be HU14 ex Karlberg
4 Mike Hall [HU2] sold at some point in 1976 to unknown, but resurfaces in US with Doug Moe in 1980
5 David Westgate [Canada] also used by Victor Larose
6 Gary Magwood [HU6]
7 Robert Young [probably HU8]
8 George Herscher [HU9]
9 Tom Price [Illinois] this is certainly ex Klausler, but might be HU2 his 1974 car rather than the 1975 one]
10 Jacques Desjardins [Canada] probably HU20 or might be T350-HU1 which was rebuilt as T360 in 1975
11 Bill Scott Racing [HU20]
12 Sandy Shepard [HU17]
13 Sans Thompson [HU15]
14 Freddy Phillips [HU12] probably sold mid season
15 James Cushing
16 Dan Marvin [late model]
17 John Kowalski [Ohio]
18 Joe Colantonio [HU11 or HU22 ex BSR]
19 Carl Haas is still advertising a latest spec T360 in April 1976 which can't account for any of the above

Since all the above, except Price, appear before Hall and Philips advertise their cars only one of them can be accounted for by a sale between them.
The profusion suggests both that all except the two UK cars were in USA/Canada, AND that HU19 which is not on Lola's build list was actually made, perhaps being the rebuild of T350-HU1 [which Joubert had taken to Canada in 1975 with a BDA in it, and HU21 was his other car].

In case anyone is wondering where all these cars are appearing the answer is in SCCA Nationals and the qualifying races for the two pro series [especially at the back of heats of the IMSA series]

At the end of 1977 HU18 is sold to USA and is known there, leaving one car in the UK

Chris

[Big Block F]

I am the owner of T360-HU08.

I researched this car thoroughly prior to purchase and was aware of the potential conflict in ownership history. However in the face of such strong documentation, file letters, logbooks and bills of sale etc, HU-08 can not be denied its historic provenance.

I proceeded with the purchase of HU-08 after verification of the well detailed documentation.

Chris, you are right, HU-08 did pass through the hands of Steve Torrance of Birmingham Tx, but prior to july 1, 1990.

I have in my files, an original letter, dated July 1, 1990 from one Robert Rahal of Steubeville, Ohio, addressed to one Steve Torrance as mentioned above. In this letter, Rahal greets Torrance warmly , as an old friend and then goes on to say

"with regard to the Lola (Serial # HU360-08) - I purchased the car from Carl Haas' organization in late 1974 and competed with it in the Formula Atlantic series through 1975. As I recall we sold the FA to a gentleman in Colorado in mid to late 1975.

I will ask Haas' to confirm my ownership and advise you."

A further letter (I have the original) dated July 7, 1990 from Carl Haas
Automobile Imports INC of Lincolnshire Illinois advises:

" Reference: Lola T-360 Formula Atlantic
Chassis No. HU360-08

The purpose of this letter is to authenticate that according to our Purchase Order Records, the references Lola T-360 was sold to Robert Rahal on November 17, 1974, under our Purchase Order No. 36005."

I have a copy of the "Purchase Order Record" as referred to above.

I also have the original Lola factory Data sheet dated August 31 1974

I have detailed ownership record that lists a succession of owners, including:

Robert Rahal MI
JM McFarlan CO
Ron Clausen CO
Jerry King CO
Kieth Young TX
Steve Torrance TX
Randy Johnson OH
Samuel Brown CT
Karl Kaimer NJ
Cecil Boyd NC

Me

The history for T360 HU-08 is the most detailed of any that I have seen for any vehicle of this vintage.

I hope this will generate further debate and hopefully we will get to a definitive list (or at least get it closer) of who drove/owned what.

I would be happy for well credentialled enthusiasts to view my documentation.

* as an aside, the other T-360 manufactured in red, was for Haas' stock.

[Chris Townsend]

Can I ask what brake calipers are on the car?

Chris

[brahal]

As I have said before, I bought/raced/now own HU-09 NOT HU-08 for the 1975 Players Series. I have never lived in Steubenville, OH. I do remember someone bringing to my attention this car and this "Robert Rahal" before and at the time made clear that this wasn't me and I didn't know who this "Robert Rahal" might be. For further proof, I have the original Log Book for HU-09 with my signatures on the event pages + the original invoice, etc. In fact, the car was originally ordered from Lola in a light blue color, but was then changed just prior to build. Hopefully all this puts this matter to rest once and for all.