[Driver] Hamilton: Disappoints

[Chaynes321]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

That was obviously a mistake on Lewis's part. I can't think why he didn't point that out. One can only presume that he wasn't thinking straight. However, once in the room he was never going to openly contradict (and effectively condemn) his team manager.

my point exactly

[Burnsie]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

...once in the room he was never going to openly contradict (and effectively condemn) his team manager.

As was pointed out on today's BBC coverage, McLaren has nurtured Hamilton since he was an 11 year-old boy. Now I'm not making any attempt to defend his actions, but having been involved with the team in some way for so many years, perhaps the thought that he was receiving bad advice (from Ryan) didn't even occur to him.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

That was obviously a mistake on Lewis's part. I can't think why he didn't point that out. One can only presume that he wasn't thinking straight. However, once in the room he was never going to openly contradict (and effectively condemn) his team manager.

Agreed.

[ChrisPage]

Originally Posted by strider

When Ryan told him him what to say, Hamilton had the chance to tell him that that would contradict what he had already told the media and thus obviously lead to complications, assuming Ryan didn't know already.

I think this could be key to the whole thing. It is beyond comprehension that between them David Ryan and Lewis Hamilton did not both know about the media interviews, the readio comms and any speed data.

They obviously however thought that this would never been taken into consideration. They can't possibly have thought (it's just too stupid!) that the stewards would never get wind of any of it. But they clearly thought all of that was of no relevence to the decision making process.

Also this goes way deeper into McLaren than just David Ryan and Lewis in isolation -

Martin Whitmarsh stated after the race that Hamilton's speed trace would show Hamilton did not slow down. Tellinglly they have never released such data. He also went very much along with the story that Trulli retook third of his own volition and Lewis did not let him past. In his post-race (but importantly pre-stewards meeting) interview he said 'Trulli retook third which ordinarilly you wouldn't do'. In this he hasn't lied - but he has deliberatly and knowingly implied that Hamilton did not let Trulli past. And this is before the sewards looked at it - so already the team at large was gearing up for this.

IMO - all McLaren needed to ask themselves was -'did the radio conversation actually get aired on live television'. It's clear they believed that because it didn't they could get away with the lie as they knew if it wasn't aired the stewards would never check it.

This IMHO goes deeper than David Ryan suggesting to Lewis to keep his gob shut - it seems a culture within the team to do this. It may well be a culture within many teams. But McLaren have been caught.

[ensign14]

More to the point, how could they not think that the stewards would not have all the external evidence, which they used at things like Monaco 2006? Everything they said might have been in the context of assuming the stewards had them.

I am not convinced at all that they did not at the very least answer every question put to them. I do however consider that the FIA had a massive vested interest in doing something to show that the stewards did not come to an asinine decision because the stewards themselves were asinine, but because someone misled them.

Let's face it. If McLaren concocted a plot to grab third place rather than fourth, contradicting readily available evidence, and their own statements, is hardly the work of genius. It's like committing a crime and volunteering to act it out on Crimewatch.

[heel'n'toe-no]

Is it me or is everyone missing the point ??

Hamiltons overtake on Trulli was legal because Trulli was off the track. Because Hamilton slowed down and NOTICEABLY SO, trulli first paused then overtook Hamilton believing quite rightly that Hamilton had a problem.

Why oh why did the stewards then get involved????? Both overtakes were legal and this did not need an enquiry.
If you asked me they are full of there own self importance which is serving only to put off new and old followers of the sport. Bernie and the FIA need to get a grip of this, it's getting worse year on year.

Given that they have immediate access to all the data from any car at any time (In real time) they can make decisions very quickly. McLaren tried to contact Charlie Whiting during the race and I presume were told to allow Trulli back through? Maybe...or maybe not, but something is missing from this story given that both overtakes were completely legal and as such DID NOT need a stewards enquiry.

Putting my conspiracy head on for a second, I suggest that perhaps the Stewards were acting as agent provocateur basically laying out the trap for Hamilton and McLaren to fall in to. (i'll re-itterate: Steward did not have to call the drivers to the meeting - the 3rd place for Trulli shouldhave stood and the 4th for Hamilton.)

On that - Why the hell did McLaren not appeal?.......yes they were wrong in being a little more economical with the truth than they should be with stewards but - COME ON McLaren - You've laid down without a fight!!!! - Are you really that scared of the power the stewards appear to have these days?? You owe it to yourselves, your team and true F1 fans worldwide to stand up against these trumped up suits who are so full of their own self importance!! - You've unwittingly set a precident now and made them feel even more empowered.

BERNIE and FIA - GET A GRIP of this before the sport implodes!!!!!

And don't get me started on the diffuser issue - What a joke!!!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by ensign14

It's like committing a crime and volunteering to act it out on Crimewatch.

Those are an act?

[ChrisPage]

Originally Posted by heel'n'toe-no

Why oh why did the stewards then get involved?????

The stewards needed to make sure Hamilton let Trulli back past. It was a very legitimate call from the stewards to look at it followed by complete ineptitude in not looking at the relevent evidence.

A combination of them failing to check radio comms and McLaren lying and here we are.

[djinvicta]

Originally Posted by heel'n'toe-no

Is it me or is everyone missing the point ??

Hamiltons overtake on Trulli was legal because Trulli was off the track. Because Hamilton slowed down and NOTICEABLY SO, trulli first paused then overtook Hamilton believing quite rightly that Hamilton had a problem.

Why oh why did the stewards then get involved????? Both overtakes were legal and this did not need an enquiry.
If you asked me they are full of there own self importance which is serving only to put off new and old followers of the sport. Bernie and the FIA need to get a grip of this, it's getting worse year on year.

Given that they have immediate access to all the data from any car at any time (In real time) they can make decisions very quickly. McLaren tried to contact Charlie Whiting during the race and I presume were told to allow Trulli back through? Maybe...or maybe not, but something is missing from this story given that both overtakes were completely legal and as such DID NOT need a stewards enquiry.

Putting my conspiracy head on for a second, I suggest that perhaps the Stewards were acting as agent provocateur basically laying out the trap for Hamilton and McLaren to fall in to. (i'll re-itterate: Steward did not have to call the drivers to the meeting - the 3rd place for Trulli shouldhave stood and the 4th for Hamilton.)

On that - Why the hell did McLaren not appeal?.......yes they were wrong in being a little more economical with the truth than they should be with stewards but - COME ON McLaren - You've laid down without a fight!!!! - Are you really that scared of the power the stewards appear to have these days?? You owe it to yourselves, your team and true F1 fans worldwide to stand up against these trumped up suits who are so full of their own self importance!! - You've unwittingly set a precident now and made them feel even more empowered.

BERNIE and FIA - GET A GRIP of this before the sport implodes!!!!!

And don't get me started on the diffuser issue - What a joke!!!

Sorry; Corect if Im wrong; McClaren objected to Trulli overtake and started the Stewards enquiry themselves. If they hadnt, thenj Trulli 3rd LH 4th at the end. They wanted 3rd so started the enquiry. Thier fault. Or am I wrong?

[djinvicta]

PS I am English and can spell, just got big fingers!!

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by djinvicta

Sorry; Corect if Im wrong; McClaren objected to Trulli overtake and started the Stewards enquiry themselves. If they hadnt, thenj Trulli 3rd LH 4th at the end. They wanted 3rd so started the enquiry. Thier fault. Or am I wrong?

You are right. And somebody forgot to take their medication and instead see a conspiracy

Personally I think McL might have been thinking that their complaint would just switch place between Ham & Trulli. But when the result was that Trully got dropped to 12th... the stakes skyrocketed and naturally the chance McL would get away with it diminished proportionally.

PS heel'n'toe-no , all through this Toyota never even complained about the unfair ruling. Suggesting McL should push this, even though they are clearly in the wrong, just shows your lack of reason. IMO McL should be darn happy if the team gets away with no further penalty exept possibly a small fine. Kicking and screaming for sure will make it worse for them.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by heel'n'toe-no

Is it me or is everyone missing the point ??

Hamiltons overtake on Trulli was legal because Trulli was off the track. Because Hamilton slowed down and NOTICEABLY SO, trulli first paused then overtook Hamilton believing quite rightly that Hamilton had a problem.

Why oh why did the stewards then get involved????? Both overtakes were legal and this did not need an enquiry.

Cars passing each other under the safety car is a very serious and potentially dangerous matter. I don't see any problem with the stewards looking at it closely every time it happens, even if it appears to be within the rules.

[JeremySmith]

Passing each other under the safety car is one thing, passing a car that does not exist is something else completely...

Lying about doing nothing wrong is just plain stupidity...

[av8rirl]

To reply to the thread title "Hamilton: Disappoints"...

As a long time supporter of McLaren and not necessarily a fan of Hamilton, I'd say I was very disappointed this morning to see that Hamilton seems to be making a scapegoat of Dave Ryan in his interviews. It also looks like the team are making a scapegoat of Dave Ryan.

Hamilton might be young but he has been around racing long enough, seems clever enough and also seems opinionated enough to resort to slagging off a team member who is not there to defend himself.

I can't for the life of me understand why they didn't just go with what had been said on the radio. There obviously seemed like there was some confusion which is understandable given the situation. I don't think the truth would have harmed either Hamilton or McLaren.

The question I'm asking myself is: During the stewards enquiry, did Hamilton back Dave Ryans story in the enquiry? or did Dave Ryan back Hamiltons story? In either case, why is only one of them (Ryan) really being punished for telling lies?

[Jeff 8]

Originally Posted by Chaynes321

i believe Hamilton was just following orders....

Ha the Nuremberg defence!

Be a man Lewis and admit you did wrong, don't blame others or say I was just following orders.


Jeff

[the.cosmic.pope]

Lewis and Dave should have just been honest.

"In the heat of the moment we were unsure if we were allowed to keep the position. Race control was busy dealing with Vettel, Kubica and the safety car, so we were unable to get clarification at the time so made the decision to let Trulli by. We'd like the stewards to look at the situation and rectify the results accordingly"

That is an honest answer, and had they said that, I am sure they would have gotten the place. But they lied and therefore got nothing.

Now Lewis has good reason to believe what he's told to do. He has been taking orders from the team for over a decade now. It brought him to F1 and it brought him a world championship. But Lewis is a grown man and must taken responsibility for his own actions. He lied. He was told to lie, but he still chose to follow that order. The words which came out of his mouth are his own responsibility. Lewis' interview afterwards annoyed me. He continually blamed Dave Ryan and only seemed sorry because he was being called a liar. He admitted lying but denied being a liar. It doesn't work like that Lewis. And the comment "put yourself in my shoes". Sure, will do. Making millions each year driving fast racing cars, beautiful girlfriend and living in a wonderful house in a tax haven. Oh it looks horrible to be you Lewis.

I was just beginning to like Lewis a little. I've never been a fan, but I was beginning to turn my opinion on him. Then this.

The conspiracy theorist in me makes me wonder if Dave Ryan is nothing but a fall guy. Whitmarsh clearly has a part in this. His rant at the end of the race about how Trulli illegally passed him contradicts the radio call. So Martin was lying from the off. Then McLarens statement and Whitmarshs statements dont really match up. More problems.

Dave Ryans been at the time since approximately forever. His sallary will be excellent, and so will his pension. "You take the heat and we make it worth your while, Dave". Perhaps conspiracy for the sake of conspiracy, but given all the lies, BS that McLaren have been involved in for years, it wouldn't surprise me at all.

[Born Racer]

I guess it would be like if today a driver started driving the wrong way around the track.

For the first Playstation Formula 1 game, they recorded Murray Walker incredlously declaring "He's going the wrong way!".

[Ralf's Girl]

I think I'm going to put myself in the "Lewis should have known better" camp. Yes, he was apparently following an instruction given to him by the team, but that doesn't excuse him for being dishonest. He strikes me as an intelligent person, who should have known he would be found out because he had already given interviews stating that he purposely let Trulli through. McLaren, similarly, should have known that their radio transmissions were available, and those two things combined mean that they were never in a million years going to get away with it.

Regardless of the investment made in Lewis's career by McLaren, they are not entitled to ask him to lie to gain an extra point in a race, and he shouldn't have done it. The fact that he has very openly pointed the finger at McLaren and blamed them for the entire situation suggests that there's now a rift within that team that's going to be very difficult to heal.

[av8rirl]

I wonder now if the team really did ask Hamilton to lie? Or did they simply back up the story he gave the stewards??? Maybe protecting their investment?

[ralf fan]

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

The fact that he has very openly pointed the finger at McLaren and blamed them for the entire situation suggests that there's now a rift within that team that's going to be very difficult to heal.

Or maybe he was told by Whitmarsh to blame Dave Ryan as he would be the team's selected scape goat, in which case Lewis is guilty of hiding the truth again.

[deeks6]

McLaren lying???

Kind of hard to believe really...they've been so honest about everything before

[Fox89]

My view is that yes, Lewis was in the wrong and should have known better. But at the same time you trust what your team tells you. I heard him in that press conference and he seemed very sincere in his apology. He has the air of a man who is upset because of what he has done, not because he has been caught.

I might be wrong and maybe he's just a damn good actor, but I see no reason to think that. As far as I'm concerned, he screwed up in the heat of the moment and feels immensely guilty now. So his reputation isn't damaged too much in my books. It's easy when someone is in the public eye to say "They should know better" and yes they should, but just cause someone screws up doesn't make them a bad person. F1 drivers are human too! And I think sometimes they are judged a tad harshly.

The best we can hope for is that Lewis will learn from this and not do it again, even if his team think its a good idea.

[JeremySmith]

Anthony Davidson summed this situation up nicely giving driver perspective on the "Chequered Flag Formula1" podcast, and that was that all drivers follow team directive at all times...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/podcasts/cff1/

[Dutton]

Except when they don't. For example, like when Lewis didn't in Hungary last year.

For sure it would be stupid to try and hang Lewis over this matter (it isn't a particularly big deal, really), but it doesn't change that he did what he did and is ultimately responsible for his own actions.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Except when they don't. For example, liek when Lewis didn't in Hungary last year.

Correct can't argue with that..