Where can a late-80s F3 car be run competitively?

[Matt Speakman]

Wow, just read this thread, though I was a talented bolshy arrogant sod when I started. 3 of the 4 wasn't bad...!

Time for a reality check

Initial Costs:
Single Seater £5-7k
New Brakes & Tyres (what it comes with will be ****) £1k
Test Day (full day) £300
Fuel for test £250
Fuel to and from test £50-100
So thats £6,600-8,650 assuming ARDS is done, clothing & lid & trailer & tow vehicle are already purchased, you're somehwere to store/prepare the car, & before you've joined a championship

Season Costs:
Split into 3 - Racing Costs, Meeting costs (Fuel to and from, accomodation, food, etc) & Preperation costs will work out to be circa £500-1k per meeting & thats before accident damage (gaps & talent can & do disappear very quickly at speed). 10 meetings a year is £5-10k. 1 set of tyres for a season? Can be done but knackered tyres that have gone through too many heat cycles will lose you a second per mile.

Combining the above costs we're at £12-19k before damage.

Though I've raced saloons always fancied racing an 80's F3 car (Dad ran Anson/Chevron/March/Pilbeam/Ralts in the 70's/80's) & for my money Mono would be the way to go with a view to moving to HSCC in future years.

Driving someone elses car for free - seen it end in tears whilst friendships end very quickly. I wouldn't offer a car of mine for free/peanuts.

My worthless advice here though, get a f/ford, do semsec/Mono, & maybe look at the Combe Carnival / WHT if you're feeling lucky.

As the old saying goes, 'Talk's cheap', the time has come to **** or get off the bucket...

[tristancliffe]

£250 for fuel for the day?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I think in a full days testing I might get through 100 liters at the absolute maximum, given nice weather and simply pounding around not working on the car, tweaking things or talking about it. That's £90, not £250!!

However, I do agree, overall, on tyres, brakes costs etc. I've used a set of tyres for a year, and whilst it can be done I was noticeably slower at the same circuit at the end of the year than I was at the start. But I wasn't bothered in my first year (not crashing was the goal), and by the time the knackered tyres had taken effect I had acheived my goals in the second year too.

But your non-damage and very limited wear and tear estimate is about right. But of course if your first year is £19k then the second year only costs £10k because you've not paid for the car a second time. But in the second year you'll probably have to do the maintenance you didn't in the first, and you'll be more hungry for speed, so spend more on tyres or datalogging etc, or you'll want to be drier so you spend more on awnings or team 'apparel'...

Motorsport at any level is not 'cheap'.

[Matt Speakman]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

£250 for fuel for the day?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

All depends on the fuel used. & at the start of the year I'd rather have change from my estimate than eat into other areas of the budget!!

[driftwood]

while we are all trying to see who can **** the highest without getting wet the bottom line is
for the kid
1 do F Vee
2 do FFord local series and do odd track away from his area for holiday/experience
3 buy zetec car go do mono F4 events
4 buy a kart do 2 season top level kit new motor tyres etc race against top blokes and come n do cars later
5 buy scaletrix set and put a porsche on the drive so u can pul some birds

yes i am taking the **** but **** happens i may still win my £1 bet!
prepared to loose it if you buy my mygale!

[wheadon]

I believe of you wait around and look about then you will get a bargain on something you want. All we wanted to do this year was Vee and we got one pretty cheap. Infact I got an absoloute bargain on it. It was fully rebuilt by the previous owner who was going to race it this year until he got offered a GAC at a knockdown price. So we got a fully sorted, fully rebuilt sheane mk1 with a top engine, fire extinguisher and belts well within date, well sorted set up and new tyres for £2,400. Bargain.

It's not far off being finished.

[PTRACER]

Mmm, I am optimistic a deal will come along. Not every Formula Ford that's for sale costs £5000, many are over £10,000, even for a model that's 10 or 15 years old. I'm also prepared to haggle a bit on the final price.

As for the costs of running it, I don't have to pay for accommodation at every track I go to, or even stay the night, I can take sandwiches rather than resorting to lopping off body parts to use as currency in order to pay for the food sold at the track....Plenty of dough can be saved in areas not directly connected to the car itself.

[tristancliffe]

That is very true. And I commend someone happy to slum it at the track eating beans out of a can - been there, done that. Actually, still do!

But the inescapable fact is that the cost of the car isn't the cost of racing. Even the cost of getting there and back plus entry fees isn't the cost of racing. Spares when you prang it (you might say IF you prang it, like I did, but some day you WILL run out of talent in a situation where a soft landing isn't an option), tyres when you realise you're getting slower despite more experience, worn out bits and bobs.

You can indeed run on a very tight budget, but only if you have a car that is happy to oblige. Some in Mono (I'm looking at the 1800 class, but there are some in every class) run on a budget so tiny that I can't believe they don't have two wallets - one much bigger than the one on show! Sure, their cars won't win presentation awards, but they remain safe, they provide the owners with the fun they crave, and they leave a bit of money for the 'just in case' scenarios.

Take a look at the market. Make some inquiring phone calls. Dermot Healy and Kevan McLurg, amongst others, nearly always have cars for sale, and private sellers appear on the market all the time. But time is running out for a bargain, as sellers will know you need a car soon to get a season of racing out of it, and that does limit the haggling!!

But first and foremost, choose a category or two to race in. You won't go far wrong with a car that can compete in F4, Mono and SEMSEC, and you get the plus points of all the calenders and clubs. Then get a car that can do that/those categories and spend a while sorting out the niggles and having a test or two. The time for choosing a car to be competitive with is not before you've turned a wheel for the first time if you are limited on budget (as we all are, surely?).

[PTRACER]

I'm waiting for Dermot to get back to me, he said he's got some cars that might be for sale in a few weeks that I would probably be interested in.

Tristan, if you don't mind me asking, how much did your season of Mono cost you? Did you throw as much money at it, or as little money at it as you could get away with?

[driftwood]

That is very true. And I commend someone happy to slum it at the track eating beans out of a can - been there, done that. Actually, still do! remind me not to stand behind you!

sleeping in the back of a van is ok but a good nights sleep is everything when racing so go to the local pub pull a bird so you can get a free bed for the night and for the next time your visit that track it has not yet worked for Tristan i think the can of beans does not help

Define a bargain? to me it usually means a car that needs money spent on it so end result is the same as buying turn key race car
FFord prices vary due to c/ships
you can have pre 72 car at £15-20k classic FFord £4-7k 1989 reynards command good money 8-10k 91 VD similar amount 99-2002 VD cars £12-15K all priced for logical reasons of c/ship eligibilty and performance
hence why a 99 Mygale zetec is at 5500 ish and VD01 zetec makes more money cos it is the car folk want to convert to kent engine

your being too picky
make up yr mind what yr race weekend budget will be ie £250 for local clubby like SEMSEC or £500 for a national c/ship round with longer travel distance testing tyres hotels food

motorsport is not cheap and cutting corners on car parts costs more later in either DNF or results
FFord motors £1500 tena penny top spec winning motors new build are £4k we will all say im not spending that money for a kent motor but once u start racing an dyr getting beaten you will soon start looking at the 4k motor to make yr car a winner

[wheadon]

I was lucky as I actually got a well sorted fully rebuilt car for pennies. Which is very rare. The only thing I've had to buy was a new oil filter as I had nipped the O ring in the old one and it emptied an oil tank onto my jeans!

[driftwood]

great excuse to wash the jeans then!

[wheadon]

yeah, very good reason!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by PTRACER

As for the costs of running it, I don't have to pay for accommodation at every track I go to, or even stay the night, I can take sandwiches rather than resorting to lopping off body parts to use as currency in order to pay for the food sold at the track....Plenty of dough can be saved in areas not directly connected to the car itself.

Tristan, if you don't mind me asking, how much did your season of Mono cost you? Did you throw as much money at it, or as little money at it as you could get away with?

When I ran a Vauxhall Junior 16V in Mono 1800 & a FVL subsequentley I used to reckon on £500 a race. That was all in, inc entires, maintenace/ repairs, fuel, transport & sharing the costs of someone to run me as I am technically incompetent. Most of the time I raced locally to me so no overnight stays, sandwiches were definately the order of the day & I used tyres bought from the F Ford & F3 teams at the end of their Donongton race meetings for £10 a tyre to really cit down costs. This was definately a "sub prime" way to go racing but I enjoyed it anyway. Even if I was at the back.

[JamesH]

Thought I would add some more cost info.

Running a Locost about midfield, doing all my own repairs (a lot), camping on site and taking own food. Still costs more than you appear to have available. Probably £400 /weekend on average. More if you blow an engine in qualifying at Donnington and cannot compete in the race that cost over £260 just to enter... And remember, Locosts use a set of tyres per season, as opposed to running anywhere near the front in a single seater where you need to change much more often. And our tyres only cost £35 each....

Don't underestimate the cost of getting to and from the circuit either. For me that's a major cost (Can be £100/weekend for Lydden) because my tow car suffers under load! Plus another £50-60 on race fuel (Shell Optimax pump fuel)

So, basically, racing any sort of car is very expensive compared to, lets say, crochet. You need to figure out how much cash you have per month, and work back from that to determine what car you will be able to afford. And, any sort of racing is better than none at all. I had a fantastic 24hr race in 2CV's for example. Top speed 76mph. Speed isn't everything, racing is.

[Chris Y]

Let's have less autocensor dodging in this thread please - you don't have to swear to get the point across.

[PTRACER]

The thread has gone off on a slight tangent from the original question, as I've decided now a late-80s F3 car is definitely not the way to go, even if I could afford it and for all the reasons OTHER than the driving part of it.

I've also realised that FF1600, F.Vauxhall, F.Vee are all viable options but only as a completely last resort. I should know in just under two week's time exactly what I'm doing.

And going by the way my business has gone this week, affording it should be no problem.

[Matt Speakman]

PT, best of luck in your car choice - no matter what you choose you'll have a hell of a good time

(& to all, apologies for the language earlier )

[steveng]

What makes you so sure you can fight for outright wins as a newcomer in any series? Most series have regulars like young Tristan who are pretty bl**dy quick and know their cars well. The message from the above is it doesn't matter what car you have, an eighties F3 engine will be hampered by lower power, less torque and expensive running costs for AVGAS and rebuilds. Your eighties F3 with a Vauxhall or a Zetec well driven may give you what you want. Do not discount the 750 Club F4 series. Pole at Snetterton was a 1.08 last year, the good guys are quick.

[PTRACER]

If Kevan McClurg would care to forward me his address, I'll send him an invoice for that £1...

[tristancliffe]

Your number plates don't match on van and trailer

Nice looking car though - from the relatively small photo it looks quite tidy. Hope you enjoy it!

[driftwood]

PTracer with pleasure !!
what is it 1978/9 FF2000 look very similar

i hope you did not take foto on your mobile phone you are not permitted to us ethem in fuel stations !
tristan my number plates never match my tow vehicle either ive cloned yours!

[PTRACER]

1979 Sparton SF79.

We hired the tow vehicle from a local hire firm and used my friend's trailer, hence different number plates!

[andy97]

Where are you planning on racing it? It should be eligible for a few different series.

[PTRACER]

HSCC Historic FF2000 at the moment. Maybe Mono and Classic F3 invitation class if money permits.

[mrsweety]

Originally Posted by JamesH

OOh. Well done for insulting everybody who drives anything slower than F3Or a 250 Superkart, but then you would have to have your brain removed.

125 ICC ok for michael schumacher to use for training and most Indy drivers come from Shifter Kart racing also *big in the US*

So Sir you talk from your harse sorry.

Gearbox karts take serious skill to drive *and balls*, far more than slow old single seater's :-)

What do you drive?