2015 World Rally Championship

[chunder]

cg

I think the programme might be French

The French seems to be utterly obsessed with interviews, I tried watcghing a few shows on Motors years ago and because it is largely a French channel their home series was just a series of interviews with the odd bit of footage thrown in, awful.

[cg7aa]

Very scary incident involving Tanak and his co-driver. Relieved to see them get away. They really had to have their wits about them. When the car comes into shot, the front wheel looks broken but I'm not certain. It could explain the car's direction.

What's wrong with us these days? You would have thought the instinctive reaction of some of the spectators at least would have been to rush to the scene and see if they can help without obviously making things worse by endangering themselves too but it seems they stand at a distance and just film. Sigh....

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by cg7aa

What's wrong with us these days? You would have thought the instinctive reaction of some of the spectators at least would have been to rush to the scene and see if they can help without obviously making things worse by endangering themselves too but it seems they stand at a distance and just film. Sigh...

Yeah, I noticed there was a bit of a lack of reaction from the crowd as well. I'm hoping its just the terrain that meant they were slow to react.

I never ceased to be amazed at the work of the mechanics though. I know that the modern WRCars are modular but, even so, to turn it around in three hours is pretty bloody impressive.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

I never ceased to be amazed at the work of the mechanics though. I know that the modern WRCars are modular but, even so, to turn it around in three hours is pretty bloody impressive.

Agreed, incredible stuff - to get a car that's been submerged for 10 hours up and running again in 3 is good going. Nice touch at the finish ramp with the snorkels

Another win for Ogier though - doesn't look like there's going to be anyone challenging him for the title does it? Latvala still can't string a weekend together and the others don't seem to have the pace.

[cg7aa]

Are we going to end up with another 9 championships for another Seb? That would be 18yrs straight for the French! We might as well crown him this year.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Another win for Ogier though - doesn't look like there's going to be anyone challenging him for the title does it? Latvala still can't string a weekend together and the others don't seem to have the pace.

Absolutely. Although Ogier won the first two rallies of the season, at least he looked like he was having to fight for the win.

This weekend certainly didn't look easy, but he didn't really look like he was under sustained pressure from anyone.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

This weekend certainly didn't look easy, but he didn't really look like he was under sustained pressure from anyone.

It always looked like he could step up a level if he needed to - he certainly wasn't driving on the ragged edge. He's now in the position where he doesn't need to go out and take each event by the scruff of the neck - so the pressure is very much off and he can afford to ease his way into each event. Latvala (and anyone else who thinks they've got a shot at the title) on the other hand now has to go out and beat Ogier, they can't afford to give up any more points (already ).

[Alex Langheck]

Originally Posted by cg7aa

Are we going to end up with another 9 championships for another Seb? That would be 18yrs straight for the French! We might as well crown him this year.

I hope not - I expect him to move to another series, as he has expressed a wish to do some DTM, GT racing.

However, I was disappointed with his rivals over the weekend. The first chance with a favourable running order to challenge him. A most of them threw their cars at the scenery. Portugal, Argentina have to see him put under pressure with running first on the first 2 days. If he manages to win either of them, then the others may as well not bother for the rest of the season.

[m355y]

The current lot are about a million miles away from the glory days of Sainz, McRae, Burns, Kankunnen, Gronholm, except one. And that one therefore wins all the time. It was the same in the Loeb days, Hirvonen was as close as it came to a 'great' to challenge him, the pool of talent seemed to nosedive so quickly from what, 2004 or 2005? Ogier is brilliant. Latvala is probably almost as quick on a given day, but hasn't really improved since 2008 in terms of consistency, the Meekes, Ostbergs and Tanaks are nowhere near the level to sustain a challenge.

There's no clear answer to that, if you've got a driver who's miles ahead of the rest AND in the best car then they'll win for fun whatever the sport and whatever the era. They've tried to play with the rules to make it tricky for Ogier, so far it's failed. But you can't just magic up someone to challenge him if they don't exist.

Mikkelsen came close in Sweden and is growing in confidence, so hopefully....

Loeb and Ogier are legends of the sport, but I get the impression both would have liked a slightly higher level of direct competition over the years. We were just spoilt for quite a few years having five or six absolute top line drivers ducking it out every season.

[cg7aa]

Originally Posted by m355y

The current lot are about a million miles away from the glory days of Sainz, McRae, Burns, Kankunnen, Gronholm, except one. And that one therefore wins all the time. It was the same in the Loeb days, Hirvonen was as close as it came to a 'great' to challenge him, the pool of talent seemed to nosedive so quickly from what, 2004 or 2005? Ogier is brilliant. Latvala is probably almost as quick on a given day, but hasn't really improved since 2008 in terms of consistency, the Meekes, Ostbergs and Tanaks are nowhere near the level to sustain a challenge.

There's no clear answer to that, if you've got a driver who's miles ahead of the rest AND in the best car then they'll win for fun whatever the sport and whatever the era. They've tried to play with the rules to make it tricky for Ogier, so far it's failed. But you can't just magic up someone to challenge him if they don't exist.

Mikkelsen came close in Sweden and is growing in confidence, so hopefully....

Loeb and Ogier are legends of the sport, but I get the impression both would have liked a slightly higher level of direct competition over the years. We were just spoilt for quite a few years having five or six absolute top line drivers ducking it out every season.

I was going to post something along those lines but you beat me to it. Over the last couple of weekends, I've been slowly transferring my WRC recordings from VHS to DVD; starting from 2000. I'm up to 2003 now and it has been such a treat.

Although quite sad in some respects because quite a few of the faces and voices I've become used to seeing and hearing as if they are still around are not (McRae, Burns, Park, Bugalski). It's a real trip into nostalgia for me seeing a fresh-faced Solberg, Martin and a certain Loeb, charismatic Peugeot boss Corrado and an animated Gilles Panizzi (his interviews are so much fun to listen to).

Anyway, I digress, the thing which has struck me is the depth of the field in those days which I took for granted as a youngster; McRae, Gronholm, Sainz, Makinen, Burns, Auriol with Solberg, Martin and Loeb snapping at their heels and Rovenpera, Panizzi getting the odd look in too (anybody remember Gilles' double doughnuts under the bridge in Spain?). If you were running first on the road on gravel events, you were in for such a battle. You would be doing extremely well to be in the top 6 after day one and in touch with the leaders.

Ogier swept the road in Mexico and still made the other look pedestrian.

Incidentally, if anyone still has a VHS player these days and wants the tapes, they can have them. You'll have to pick them up from the Bedfordshire area. Some of the quality is poor due to long play recording; I was a student and couldn't afford fresh tapes all the time plus rubbish reception in my university halls.

"You're the best in the world!"
"...Markko, where are you?..."

[m355y]

Gronholm was almost as funny as Panizzi. I remember him getting to the end of a stage and explaining, straight faced and gesturing wildly, how something from under the seat had broken through and gone "straight up into the arse of Timo (Rautienen)"

We were absolutely spoilt by that generation. They were brilliant.

So sad as you say to think that in say 2003, only 12 years ago, so many of the faces centre stage in the season review DVD, Richard Burns battling for the championship and bouncing back from his spanking by Gronholm the previous season, Michael Park alongside Martin as they kicked arse in the updated Focus, Colin McRae in the Citroen, Phillipe Bugalski, are no longer with us. All the F1 drivers from that era are still here.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

It always looked like he could step up a level if he needed to - he certainly wasn't driving on the ragged edge.

Agreed. Damn shame, as I think Ogier is spectacular to watch when he is pushing hard.

Originally Posted by m355y

Loeb and Ogier are legends of the sport, but I get the impression both would have liked a slightly higher level of direct competition over the years. We were just spoilt for quite a few years having five or six absolute top line drivers ducking it out every season.

Also agreed! I believe both are phenomenal drivers, but their achievements are lessened somewhat by the absence of any sustained competition.

[chunder]

It is a trend common in a lot of motorsport at the moment. Hence the popularity of things like LM where the driver is seemingly less significant.

MotoGP, Moto2, BSB, rally, WTCC, even sometimes NASCAR are dominated by the same team or drivers at times.

F1 has suffered for years with Seb, Schuey and after today it seems this year is another Mercedes benefit.

I ahve said it a million times, domination benefits noone but the team and driver dominating, nobody else wins.

[m355y]

Domination by one team or driver is bad for the spectacle, but if we want pure competition then it shouldn't be tampered with because if one driver or team is THAT far ahead of the rest then they deserve the success. They earnt it. I hated 2002, 2004, 2011, 2013 in F1, they were garbage from a spectacle point of view because there was one team miles ahead, and one clearly superior driver in that team. Rosberg saved last season from being as bad by taking the fight to Hamilton a bit.

Shouldn't really be any other way though. The dominant driver can only beat what's put in front of them.

[Alex Langheck]

Originally Posted by m355y

Domination by one team or driver is bad for the spectacle, but if we want pure competition then it shouldn't be tampered with because if one driver or team is THAT far ahead of the rest then they deserve the success. They earnt it. I hated 2002, 2004, 2011, 2013 in F1, they were garbage from a spectacle point of view because there was one team miles ahead, and one clearly superior driver in that team. Rosberg saved last season from being as bad by taking the fight to Hamilton a bit.

Shouldn't really be any other way though. The dominant driver can only beat what's put in front of them.

Agree with this. Motorsport has a real problem with domination. So then decides to even it up; which in a World Championship is criminal. The same teams keep winning in football; they don't get handicapped though.


As for an earlier point, the depth of competition just isn't there. Just look at the 2000 WRC;

Mitsubishi; Makinen Loix
Ford; McRae, Sainz, Solberg
Subaru; Burns, Kankkunen
Peugeot; Gronholm, Panizzi, Delecour
Seat; Auriol, Gardemeister
Skoda; Schwarz, Climent
Hyundai; Eriksson, McRae

And that doesn't include Liatti, Martin, Rovanpera, Laukkanen, Jean-Joseph and other specialists, something we don't see anymore.
4 Manufacturers won, and 6 drivers won....

We also had 2 tyre makes, with Pirelli better on gravel and damp tarmac, and Michelin competitive virtually everywere. Not only that, but depending on the event/ surface, you had an idea who would be competitive; as it changed from event to event.
No such luck nowadays; doesn't matter with running order, tyres, surface; it's VW.

[chunder]

The thing is

When Tommi won all those championships it somehow wasnt boring was it?

Because he was constantly battling Colin or Didier or Carlos or someone else.

The tyre rule there being only one works in national series.

but it has ruined MotoGP, SBK and numerous other series because if your inherent designs cant make that tyre work you ahve to totally redesign everything.

Why did Pirelli never, ever work on snow, why did they never work on tarmac unless it was wet.

The balance is gone, the drivers have too sadly, rallying just isnt as interesting for young kids, its harder to buy an Escort, rally it for a few grand, get noticed, and move up.

Its hte same in all motorsport sadly

[Alex Langheck]

Whilst Tommi won 4 in a row, he was only truly the best driver in the 1996 season. McRae won more events in 97 but was let down by mechanicals consistently. In 98 similarly; McRae led the final 2 events which would have given him the Title, but engine woes cost him, then Sainz had the Title in his lap when his engine went bang!
As for 99, he probably just deserved the Title.
As you say, he never really dominated, he just ended the season with more points.

Also, that era saw the change from Gp A to WRCars, and the old style WRC event to the generic cloverleaf WRC event. Which, is what has damaged the sport more than anything.
Remember when McRae win the Title, he lost 2 minutes to Sainz in Pundershaw, and still won the event. You simply couldn't do that now.

[chunder]

INterestingly Mitsubish never went WRC until right near the end, the Lancer was always Group A until the newer shape model came along.

I do think Tommi doesnt get a lot of credit for those years. If you watch the footage, there are two guys who are consistently quick, Tommi and Colin.

And for me Tommi always has the edge because unlike just about any Finn before him ther than Henri, he could be just as quick on asphalt. Juha, Timo, Ari, Hannu, MArcus were all nowhere near as good on tar as gravel. Colin too was as quick on both.

[BertMk2]

Rally Argentina is underway and it's looking pretty brutal so far - lots of cars with damage and Meeke leading. Ogier out with engine problems so that's opened it up!

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Rally Argentina is underway and it's looking pretty brutal so far - lots of cars with damage and Meeke leading.

You had to say it out loud didn't you Bert? You know that means he will crash now!

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

You had to say it out loud didn't you Bert? You know that means he will crash now!

Sorry

(anyway, we all know it'll be an electrical issue that puts him out - it is a Citroen after all!)

[sethmate]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Sorry

(anyway, we all know it'll be an electrical issue that puts him out - it is a Citroen after all!)

Thankfully not, although it is quiet on here for what was the first British driver to win a wrc round since 2002!

Whatever people think the wrc has become, the level of competition, vw dominance, etc, to have two brits on the podium again (not to mention anyone other than ogier or a vw winning) is a good thing, right?

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by sethmate

Thankfully not, although it is quiet on here for what was the first British driver to win a wrc round since 2002!

I didn't want to risk cursing Meeke by commenting too soon! Absolutely made up for Meeke, arguably a victory of chance but still a measured drive and a well deserved (and long overdue) win.

Good weekend for Citroen with a 1-2, plus Evans on the podium as well.

[BertMk2]

Good result for Meeke and for the championship (Ogier not winning!). I didn't catch much of the final days coverage so I'll have to watch that later but it certainly seemed a very punishing event on the machinery. Good stuff though

[BertMk2]

Meekes victory makes it onto the BBC website:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/motorsport/32465027

Not exactly front page but it is there!