[WTCC] Race 5 & 6 - Marrakech (MAR), 3rd May 2009

[helterskelter]

If you want to know some more, an Italian reporter heard from an English commentator that SEAT have sent new brakes during the night between Saturday and Sunday.
What werner mentioned is true, but then why slower before - best lap - slower again? Wasn't he pushing in the first laps? I doubt it...
Finally, Pergusa doesn't have such a strong braking COMPARED TO MARRAKECH: I say that because most of the corners in Pergusa are to be done in 3rd gear, while in Marrakech I suppose there was a lot of 6th-2nd downshifting going on. The heat didn't help, anyway. Porto is terrible for the brakes, I suppose, while Imola is hard but not as much as Porto and Marrakech, IMO.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

What werner mentioned is true, but then why slower before - best lap - slower again? Wasn't he pushing in the first laps? I doubt it...

Isnt that the trademark of Andy, especially when starting a bit back in the grid? Careful starts, saving the material and making sure to stay out of trouble for the first half of the race, and then pick up the pace and pick the opposition off 1 by 1 when they already spent their powder.

I can easily imagine that was what he was intending to do this time as well and then eg noticed "Oh crap, I'm losing the brakes" and decided to rather finish the race than risk ending up with no brakes at all and binning the car. If you dont make it across the finish line, you are guaranteed to not score any points.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Isnt that the trademark of Andy, especially when starting a bit back in the grid? Careful starts, saving the material and making sure to stay out of trouble for the first half of the race, and then pick up the pace and pick the opposition off 1 by 1 when they already spent their powder.

I can easily imagine that was what he was intending to do this time as well and then eg noticed "Oh crap, I'm losing the brakes" and decided to rather finish the race than risk ending up with no brakes at all end binning the car. If you dont make it across the finish line, you are guaranteed to not score any points.

On lap 9? A bit too late to start pushing, isn't it? I also noticed that he had his best top speed and nearly his best top speed in sector 3 (only 0.4 kph less than his best). Are you absolutely sure that the slipstream didn't play a role in it? Maybe he was close enough to Bennani to feel the effects of the slipstream on lap 9 and then blocked by him during the next 3 laps.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

On lap 9? A bit too late to start pushing, isn't it?

To be such a huge fan of Andy I'm puzzled how you know so little about his actual driving tactics. How many times have we seen Andy sit around place 10 a few laps from the end of the first race and then suddenly he crosses the finishline in place 8 and gets the reverse grid pole. He is the master of just enough speed in exactly the right situation to pull those 11 points out of the hat when none else imagined it would even be possible.

I also noticed that he had his best top speed and nearly his best top speed in sector 3 (only 0.4 kph less than his best). Are you absolutely sure that the slipstream didn't play a role in it? Maybe he was close enough to Bennani to feel the effects of the slipstream on lap 9 and then blocked by him during the next 3 laps.

Distance Bennani - Andy
Lap 5 1,3s
Lap 6 1,0s
Lap 7 1,6s
Lap 8 1,2s
Lap 9 0,9s
Lap 10 1,0s
Lap 11 1,0s
Lap 12 0,6s
Andy was never even close enough to think about an overtake, let alone be held up by Bennani.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

To be such a huge fan of Andy I'm puzzled how you know so little about his actual driving tactics. How many times have we seen Andy sit around place 10 a few laps from the end of the first race and then suddenly he crosses the finishline in place 8 and gets the reverse grid pole. He is the master of just enough speed in exactly the right situation to pull those 11 points out of the hat when none else imagined it would even be possible.

Distance Bennani - Andy
Lap 5 1,3s
Lap 6 1,0s
Lap 7 1,6s
Lap 8 1,2s
Lap 9 0,9s
Lap 10 1,0s
Lap 11 1,0s
Lap 12 0,6s
Andy was never even close enough to think about an overtake, let alone be held up by Bennani.

It doesn't mean half a second slower and then he suddenly pushes. Normally he has a consistent race pace, which is fast enough to stay with the guy in front, and then if he has something more he pulls it in. Most of the times Andy has done this has been due to his ability to stay out of trouble, so while the others were desperate to pass each other for points he exploited their mistakes and passed them, surely he's able to do that because he only uses the material he needs and the car is relatively fresh at the end of the race compared to the others', if he doesn't have to defend.
Remember Bennani and Priaulx were slower at the end of the race. Was Bennani attacking Jorg? Finish line gap doesn't indicate what happened during the lap, we should look at sector times. I'm pretty sure Andy tried to overtake Bennani on lap 12, for instance.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Was Bennani attacking Jorg?

Just rewatched lap 7-12, nobody really close enough between the 3 to attempt a pass except possibly for Andy in the very last corner of lap 12. And I almost fell asleep again. Gosh that was a boring race.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Just rewatched lap 7-12, nobody really close enough between the 3 to attempt a pass except possibly for Andy in the very last corner of lap 12. And I almost fell asleep again. Gosh that was a boring race.

Looking at sector 1 of lap 11 I noticed that both Andy and Mehdi were pretty slow, so it looks like Andy attacked Bennani or they both made a mistake. Maybe they just didn't show it on tv.

[werner]

Monteiro excluded due to turbopressure

An extra point for Engstler and Coronel, Monteiro's season going from bad to worse.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by werner

Monteiro excluded due to turbopressure

An extra point for Engstler and Coronel, Monteiro's season going from bad to worse.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Matt

Happy about the extra point for Engstler, extra point for Coronel or the bad results of Monteiro?

[Robbe]

I guess he is happy that they've excluded a diesel.

[helterskelter]

This is bad anyway. As everybody knows I don't like the diesel that much, but this is putting some shades on the whole championship. Jorg Muller had told me, and I had written it on this forum, that his experience showed that everytime a turbo engine came in the championship was spoiled because it was hard to do the checks.
What if something like what happened to Monteiro had also happened during other races and on other cars? This is the doubt that a lot of people will have in mind, especially the manufacturers. I wouldn't blame BMW if the Federation does nothing about it and they decide to pull out.
This is bad for the championship, and I really love the Wtcc, so it's really really sad to hear that a car was out of the rules

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Robbe

I guess he is happy that they've excluded a diesel.

You got it!

[werner]

Well, the drama goes on and on. According to Dutch website autosport.nl more of the Seat's might have been illegal. I'll do a rough translation of the main points.

'Monteiro's Seat has been excluded, because according to the telemetry his turbopressure has been above the limit of 2,5 bar during the race twice. The Fia has been measuring this with a tolerance of 0,4 bar. A source at a BMW factoryteam reacted very surprised at the news, because no one at BMW has ever heard of the tolerance of 0,4 bar.
When searching in the rules or at the website there is also no trace of the decision to use such a tolerance. It is quite a large one as well; it does make a difference whether you drive with 2,5 or 2,9 bar of boost. And at other rules about for instance rideheightt there is no such thing as 'tolerance'.'

In another article on the website the author states in an opinion that he for a while thought the wtcc-organisation is pretty amateuristic, and that this case is just another example. While it is relatively relaxed to work in as a jounalist, the level of the officials is not worthy of a world championship.

[touringlegend]

0.4 of a bar tolerance is huge on first appearance but there could be a good reason. I'm not a turbo expert..

But as a percentage of 2.5 bar.. thats weird.

[Matt]

Jesus, they're running 35psi!

[helterskelter]

This is crazy. Wanna know when things such as 'tolerance' are in the rules? One make series, small and non-manufacturer supported ones. 0.4? out of 2.5? Where does the reduction lie, then?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

This is crazy. Wanna know when things such as 'tolerance' are in the rules? One make series, small and non-manufacturer supported ones. 0.4? out of 2.5? Where does the reduction lie, then?

.4 is actually quite a bit.

.4 bar is 5.8psi, which can be equivalent to 30-35 extra hosepower.

[awrb]

Maybe BMW should put a new engine in their car, a 2.4l one perhaps. It's a 2.0 engine with 0.4 tolerance. And they can put a turbo on and run it to 0.4 bar, since that's not having a turbo with a tolerance of 0.4.

2.4 wheel drive just doesn't work though.

[werner]

Eh, I might be horribly wrong here, but has a NA-car not a 'turbopressure' of about 1 bar already, due to the natural airpressure? That makes sense when it is known that on high altitudes NA cars have more problems, because the air-pressure is lower. Turbocharged cars can fix it by letting the turbo suck in some more air, and still be under 2,5 bar.

[helterskelter]

awrb---->lol!!!!
Wanna have fun? Let's take the cylinder for instance. Technical rules say that it can be of max 2000 cm3, and WEAR TOLERANCE WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED!
Now, we all spend time following the Wtcc, we spend money to go to the races, we spend hours and hours writing on it, we support our drivers thinking the FIA checks the cars after every race so that the championship can be of a high quality and respectful of the fans. Then we hear all this!
I want to know why they're trying to kill the Wtcc. We've already seen that high level touring car racing can be spoiled by the organizers. The Italian SuperT died because it wasn't organized properly, do we really want to kill this championship, too?
Someone save the Wtcc tonight!

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by awrb

Maybe BMW should put a new engine in their car, a 2.4l one perhaps. It's a 2.0 engine with 0.4 tolerance. And they can put a turbo on and run it to 0.4 bar, since that's not having a turbo with a tolerance of 0.4.

2.4 wheel drive just doesn't work though.

Currently all 3 FIA World Championships are a mess.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

This is crazy. Wanna know when things such as 'tolerance' are in the rules?

I've yet to find where 2.5 bar is specifically mentioned in the regs either, which I understand was partly the reason why BMW protested. The turbo restriction has been much talked about but I'm not sure it's ever been officially defined.

[werner]

Yes, I start to feel that the Fia, or if they don't, Seat, BMW and Chevy, need to find someone else to promote the championship.
So, who in the world is capable of leading a championship with so many hard to compromise people? I'd say some guys from Australia might be usefull, their V8-championship has been a succes for years. Despite only having 2 brands in the series, there are fights along the whole field, against the own or the other brand. They are doing better than Germany, wich is hardly a race instead of a political give-and-take game, or Britain, which offers pretty exiting races, but seems not to be able to keep manufacturers interested enough. In Sweden they are also doing a pretty good job.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by werner

Eh, I might be horribly wrong here, but has a NA-car not a 'turbopressure' of about 1 bar already, due to the natural airpressure? That makes sense when it is known that on high altitudes NA cars have more problems, because the air-pressure is lower. Turbocharged cars can fix it by letting the turbo suck in some more air, and still be under 2,5 bar.

No. Turbopressure is additional air being shoved in. When a car is running 1,0bar, thats and additional 14.7psi being pushied in, including the 14.7pis normally. So an absolute pressure of 1,0bar is equal to 29.4psi.