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20 Apr 2009, 19:53 (Ref:2445809) | #76 | ||
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Just to quickly flit back to the VXR pulling out, I know it's optimistic but could this pave the way for Chevy to enter officially. They already have the cars built and developed, so it would be cheeper, and RML are proving they can run both championships now, so you wouldn't have a SEAT Sport/Northern South situation. Plus Chevy could do with this kind of publicity in the UK. I know GM are doing badly, but is there a chance?
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20 Apr 2009, 20:29 (Ref:2445838) | #77 | ||
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If I remember correctly, the 2 litre engine size was chosen for the BTCC when the move was made away from Group A regulations. I think that the rationale at the time was to try and involve all of the manufactureres who produced 'normal' saloon cars, the type of thing we could see being driven the length of the UK motorways by 'shiney suited' sales rep's as company cars. 2 litre Mondeo's and Toyota's etc. was thought to be far more representative than Ford Sierra RS500's and BMW M3's as what you'd see on the UK roads at the time.
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20 Apr 2009, 20:48 (Ref:2445852) | #78 | |
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That's correct. There's was no great technical reason for the 2-litre saloon requirement, it was chosen simply because almost every major manufacturer had a model that fitted that description. Apart from the move away from the traditional 3-box 4-door saloon that's still true today.
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21 Apr 2009, 12:05 (Ref:2446259) | #79 | ||
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If you wanna go really production based, why don't take a page out of the Koni Challenge playbook?
They have tons of different cars, pretty exiting racing and big grids. The GS-class (M3, Mustang, Porsche 911) was pretty much the blueprint for the SRO's GT4-series, but the ST-class (Civic, Chevy Cobalt, GTI, BMW 330, Minis, Subaru Legacy etc.) would make a great touring car series, I think. Perhaps with some pre-season balancing like in GT3 instead of Grand Am's ad-hoc approach. Perhaps do away with the Z4s and the MX-5s, but that's just a detail. Maybe there should also be some kind of spec-wing o make the cars a little more exiting, though I like the way Grand Am does it with allowing publicly available after marketparts if they see it necessary to help out a certain car performance wise. I urge anyone to get their hands on the video-coverage of the Koni Challenge round at Daytona (I think you know how ), that's some pretty awesome stuff. I am not sure if multi class racing is the way to go these days, but if it is to be, maybe GT4 could be a basis for the big class, though with only the more touring-ish cars from it like the M3 and the Mustang. |
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21 Apr 2009, 14:49 (Ref:2446357) | #80 | |||
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A version of GT4 (or even GT3) would be quite good - but for saloons/coupes with 4 seats and keeping bodyshells as basic as possible. Wings/spoilers/arches and all that should be kept for single seaters and sportscar racing imo! |
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21 Apr 2009, 17:45 (Ref:2446453) | #81 | |
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I can't help thinking all this discussion of regulation changes is jumping the gun a bit.
Whilst the WTCC is around I can only see the BTCC following their rules. I don't see them taking the chance of going it alone unless there is strong manufacturer demand for a certain set of rules, which there no doubt won't be. |
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21 Apr 2009, 18:20 (Ref:2446478) | #82 | ||
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I can't help thinking people are suggesting BritCar / Production S1.....!
As for budgets, people will spend as much as they can, no matter what the regs are. I'm sure some of the budgets in SportMaxx aren't cheap, and that's meant to be very near "production". |
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21 Apr 2009, 18:51 (Ref:2446507) | #83 | |||
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But as you say unlikely that'll happen soon? |
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21 Apr 2009, 18:57 (Ref:2446510) | #84 | |||
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22 Apr 2009, 00:09 (Ref:2446681) | #85 | |||
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22 Apr 2009, 00:17 (Ref:2446684) | #86 | ||
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Well, the nature of touring car racing (cheaper than open wheel racing) makes it usual that the manufacturers enter 3 cars or more, that's not the big issue. The problem is we need something to get, say, 15 privateers on the grid instead of 8 (2 of which are almost works, like Porteiro and Coronel). I don't know if I explained my point clearly enough. TBH, if I had a 100,000£ budget and still couldn't step into the Btcc I'd be absolutely upset, if I had the talent. So we need cheaper cars to be the pinnacle of the sport, IMO. No need to have 20 superfast cars on the grid, people and drivers will have more fun with 35 decently powered cars fighting against each other. I'm sure that some Ginetta championships, the Clio or the Leon Supercopa don't cost less than 100,000£ in the UK, so maybe if the bigger series start to follow that path the budgets needed for all the levels of the sport will go down. Hopefully...
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22 Apr 2009, 08:47 (Ref:2446827) | #87 | |
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I think GBP100K will is an unrealistic figure to run a season in something like the BTCC even if stock road cars were used !
The current S2000 regs for the BTCC offer the best chance of riding out the recession. Why ? Well stability... i.e. no changes mean that development costs are minimal. Also, parity with other series around the world... means a plentiful supply of cars and parts, as well as the option for drivers/teams to race elsewhere e.g. Macau, WTCC invitations etc... If/when SEAT/BMW vacate the WTCC, that series is likely to fold and many of the participants and/or their cars will find their way to the cheaper [and arguably better] BTCC. So in a perverse way the WTCC's pain would be the BTCC's gain. Now having said all of that, if the series does decline because of the costs of running an S2000 car in a recession, then the best solution is for the BTCC to 'open up the regs' and allow a broader range of entries with equalization... in the same way Britcar does. |
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22 Apr 2009, 12:00 (Ref:2446938) | #88 | |||
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22 Apr 2009, 12:38 (Ref:2446967) | #89 | ||
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As I've said before I don't see how Vauxhall leaving equates to needing another new set of technical regs. |
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22 Apr 2009, 12:50 (Ref:2446973) | #90 | |||
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I recall in the great days of Group A prior to Formula RS500/M3, various national series had locally developed cars, (often in different classes!!) alongside importer/works backed entries. It all added interest, variety and spice to proceedings. It was still possible for a true privateer to turn up with a fairly competitive race ready car, second hand, in a smaller class (or big class) and have a bit of fun in a premier series. I don't think there's quite as much choice or opportunity to do that with the current regs is there? |
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22 Apr 2009, 13:01 (Ref:2446983) | #91 | ||||
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22 Apr 2009, 13:06 (Ref:2446985) | #92 | ||
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22 Apr 2009, 13:16 (Ref:2446993) | #93 | ||
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22 Apr 2009, 19:19 (Ref:2447252) | #94 | ||
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Yeah, let's take Jtcc as an example. I think we all find that series pretty sucessful in terms of grid. The budget needed is between 40K and 60K, I can tell you for sure. What do we have? 30+ grid, 10 brands competing and a lot of fun for the drivers and the crowds. Now, why not take the Jtcc rules (smaller engine, nearer to production cars than the s2000) and use them for the top championship? I think the big crowds and the drivers want action, no matter which car. Also, if I want a supercar, I compete in the national Porsche Cup, very expensive but great car, reaching +300 km/h in Monza, as I've seen in the past. So, davyboy, great championships can be ran even with less than 100K, and IMO Btcc and Wtcc are lacking humilty in that sense, as if a smaller-engined cars were not as fun as a 2.0. As I said before, we should all go back to the essence of Touring Car Racing, which is fun, fun, fun, no matter in which car. I can assure you that a 90hp Citroen C1 can be absolutely fun. Maybe that's too underpowered, but a 1.6 car would be great and cheaper.
Stedevil I know that BMWs are 20kgs lighter in the Btcc, but if you look at Mat Jackson and Colin Turkington last year they were competitive as well, and Mat drove for his own team, so we can't say it's about having a well experienced team behind you. Privateers can find themselves at the same level of competitiveness as the works drivers, as Porteiro has shown in the Wtcc and as the BMWs did in Btcc last year, even without having less weight compared to the Wtcc rules. |
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22 Apr 2009, 20:55 (Ref:2447344) | #95 | ||
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I don't think the actual size of the base car is the big issue, but the way you built it. Sure, a roadgoing BMW 320 or 330 costs more than a Citroen C1, but even if you start with a brand new fully equiped roadcar and the price difference is about 20k € you will recoup a lot of it by re-selling parts you don't need for your car and the rest of the costs is spread over several years in which you - or someone you sell the car to later on - can campaign it.
New S2000 cars usually cost around 200k €, the price of the roadcar is only 10-15% of that, and that is if you don't start with a body in white, as I think most constructors do. So as long as you built a C1 to full S2000 rules (smaller engine notwithstanding), you will probably still spend 170k... Whereas a Koni Challenge (= Showroom Stock) Honda Civic - such as this one - usually goes for well bellow 100k $ and can be raced competitively for 5 or more years, if memory serves me right. If you have to, add a spec wing for max. 5k and you have a perfectly good touring car. |
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22 Apr 2009, 21:13 (Ref:2447353) | #96 | |||||
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Again we're going down a preference route but small cars really aren't suitable for a big series as a single class series. They are suitable for smaller classes within a big series or as one-make racing. |
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22 Apr 2009, 23:21 (Ref:2447415) | #97 | ||
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I fully respect your opinion and the sponsorship thing is a good point. However, I don't think that the great crowds that go to race meetings care about which engine do the cars have. The cars just have to look sporty and fun.
Also, we accept the 2.0 engines as the top of this sport, but then some people will think that 3.0 engines have to be there if the cars are to be good enough to be considered the pinnacle of the sport. So I believe that whichever engine you choose, some people will always be unhappy. As you said, it's mostly about preferences |
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22 Apr 2009, 23:24 (Ref:2447417) | #98 | |||
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22 Apr 2009, 23:35 (Ref:2447421) | #99 | ||
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Going back to the idea of seeing Chevrolet come in to replace Vauxhall, this seems a viable option, the cars are already being developed within the WTCC budget, all they need is the cost of running the cars, surely a massive saving over the amount of funding that went to Vauxhall whilst still maintaining a presence?
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23 Apr 2009, 03:06 (Ref:2447496) | #100 | |
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I think people spend too much time worried about the manufacturers. I think the key focus should be putting cars out there people actually want to turn up and watch at the circuit and that race drivers want to race. Then you'll get the manufacturers and get the manufacturers to conform to your rules not theirs.
When you let the manufacturers have their head they boom/bust series and as of right now it's a fringe series only the hardcore fans watch. I don't want to watch S2000. I've tried. I've watched STCC, WTCC and BTCC races and I can't get into it. I'm not spending my money to fly over to Europe either to attend a race meeting. I'd rather go to New Zealand and watch the NZV8's. |
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