Will F1 Return to Indianapolis?

[deletraz]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Please, can you elaborate for the benefit of those who may not have read the entire thread or might not understand F1 politics?

I don't mean to speak for RaceFreak, but I think Bernie creates a few stumbling blocks.

For one, he just doesn't seem to like the place much. He was always fairly disparaging of the track and city, and in fact refused to stay in Indianapolis -- he flew in and out of Chicago each day during race weekends, as I understand it.

Much more significantly, though, was his total inflexibility regarding the sanctioning fees. The speedway lost money on the event because the fee was so high, and Tony George has a policy of never accepting financial help from the government. If Bernie would have lowered the fee they would still be racing at Indy.

Since the recession Bernie seems to be far more flexible on fees -- Montreal's deal is far cheaper now, from what I understand. That might be a point in Indy's favor.

I think there's a bigger issue than Bernie, though, and it's the fact the Tony George isn't connected to the speedway anymore. He was very aggressive in bringing in new events and spending money for improvements and modifications, and that's a big part of why his sisters kicked him out. The new regime at Indy figures to be far more conservative in its deal-making, and very likely to want a nearly guaranteed profit from any future race. That's hard to envision.

One other note on Bernie -- I spoke to Peter Windsor about this last summer (before his exile), and he suggested that if Bernie says it's clear the next USGP will not be at Indy... then you should probably assume the next race will be at Indy. Always assume the opposite of any public statement from Bernie.

[Spritle]

I rest my case:

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/12316.html

Bernie is daft if he thinks New York State, New York City or ANYPLACE in New Jersey is going to subsidize an F1 race, especially in light of the economy, their budget shortfalls and the Federal Government's unrestricted spending. He is still looking for that "worthy of F1" venue in the US but underestimates the intelligence of the US taxpaying public and their willingness to finance his fantasies.

He totally buggered up any chances for an F1 race returning to the US, anywhere or anytime soon by his grandiose dreams, ridiculous fees, big mouth and a weaker global economy. With less manufacturers in the sport, the push to return to their biggest market will become less important, especially if Dieter pulls the plug when Mercedes doesn't get results.

The window of opportunity is gradually closing and longer F1 is missing in America, the less anybody cares.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Spritle

I rest my case:

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/12316.html

Bernie is daft if he thinks New York State, New York City or ANYPLACE in New Jersey is going to subsidize an F1 race, especially in light of the economy, their budget shortfalls and the Federal Government's unrestricted spending.

I think he has got a little too used to the free flow of Gulf State petro-dollars. Anyway, where exactly in New Jersey is this race supposedly to take place?

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I think he has got a little too used to the free flow of Gulf State petro-dollars. Anyway, where exactly in New Jersey is this race supposedly to take place?

http://www.njmp.com/index.php

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

http://www.njmp.com/index.php

That's nowhere near Manhattan, no back drop of the New York City skyline from there.

[Spritle]

I know somebody who races there, it ain't F1 worthy and besides; all of those migrant cranberry pickers and tomato farmers roaming around Millville might be more of the "wrong crowd" Bernie so despises!

[tblincoe]

The only place I can identify that would fit Bernie's short description is Liberty State Park...

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

http://www.njmp.com/index.php

That place could barely handle Grand Am...someone is smokin' somthing if that is a possible venue....

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

That place could barely handle Grand Am...someone is smokin' somthing if that is a possible venue....

It's not.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by tblincoe

The only place I can identify that would fit Bernie's short description is Liberty State Park...

As its name says it's a state park so that's not going to happen.

[tblincoe]

While I would tend to agree - there really isn't anywhere else on that side of the river that fits. New York/New Jersey have been open to commercial use of park facilities in recent history, so I wouldn't categorically dismiss it.

Given the investment at Liberty National, I think there's a shot this could be tied into a larger revamp of that area...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Yes there is that but it will take some time as it goes through the state legislature and then there's the funding which will also have to be approved, who's going to do the actual work; it could take some time and that's before the track's even built.

[tblincoe]

Not only that, but a lot of work would be needed to revamp large swaths of the park boundary too.

That being said, don't underestimate the development going on in that area. Liberty National was a $250 mil project and there are close to a thousand homes going up in the area, all for $1 mil+. Remember, Liberty National already held The Barclay's last year and will be in the tournament rotation in years to come.

I really think that area is a prime candidate for a Melbourne-esque treatment. The who/what/when would obviously be the things Bernie is dealing with at the moment. As a potential site, I'm intrigued and think it could be one of the best chances for a viable USGP...

[Spritle]

The Meadowlands is the only non-swamp area in Jersey with a Manhattan view large enough but alas, with no track. And with the NEW stadium and the much maligned Xanadu shopping and entertainment complex already delayed and costing a fortune; I'd HAPPILY pay $200 a ticket to watch Bernie ask them, (NJ who owns the Meadowlands Complex) for the $$$.

He'd end up in the same hole as Jimmy Hoffa!!

Or how about a road course in Manhattan itself, surely Bernie's ultimate dream; running down the West Side Highway or the FDR possibly. Shut down NYC in the middle of the day for Friday practice, maybe the busiest traffic day of the week and create a security nightmare for the NYPD. And let's not forget Saturday Quali & Sunday's race!!

That will be IMMENSELY popular!!

Keep dreaming Bernie!

[Spritle]

As far as Liberty National goes, surley you underestimate the power of NIMBY's in the Northeast.

With the noise generated by F1 or just about ANY motor race near homes...

...trust me it will NEVER fly!

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by Spritle

As far as Liberty National goes, surley you underestimate the power of NIMBY's in the Northeast.

With the noise generated by F1 or just about ANY motor race near homes...

...trust me it will NEVER fly!

As someone 'from' the Northeast, I definitely know how how big an impact that set can have - just look at what happened in DC with the ALMS.

There are certainly obstacles to overcome, but I can also see where Bernie's interest is coming from.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by tblincoe

That being said, don't underestimate the development going on in that area. Liberty National was a $250 mil project and there are close to a thousand homes going up in the area, all for $1 mil+. Remember, Liberty National already held The Barclay's last year and will be in the tournament rotation in years to come.

That's a very good point. Apart from the timescale, as Berrnie wants this for 2012, the only other sticking point will be how long will they get the contract for? I don't see a 5 year conract being worth while, when alternatively they could be building houses, which is far cheaper to do than building a race track.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Spritle

As far as Liberty National goes, surley you underestimate the power of NIMBY's in the Northeast.

With the noise generated by F1 or just about ANY motor race near homes...

...trust me it will NEVER fly!

My godfather used to live in Haworth and that was one of the most conservative places I've been too. I'm not too sure what the rest of the Garden State's like but there was the sense of a massive suburb.

[tblincoe]

And just going back to the NIMBY comment earlier, this is about the best spot in NY to minimize those complaints as much as possible - you've got the Hudson to the East, Liberty National and the Port of New Jersey to the South, the Turnpike and railway to the West, and the marina/business district of Jersey City to the North.

Rail, car, and ferry access would be excellent at this site too. This has got to be Bernie's wet-dream...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by tblincoe

And just going back to the NIMBY comment earlier, this is about the best spot in NY to minimize those complaints as much as possible - you've got the Hudson to the East, Liberty National and the Port of New Jersey to the South, the Turnpike and railway to the West, and the marina/business district of Jersey City to the North.

Rail, car, and ferry access would be excellent at this site too. This has got to be Bernie's wet-dream...

I can't argue against that, it's in a very good location and Newark airport is about 8 miles away.

[Spritle]

When you consider NOBODY in NY or NJ has ever heard the whine of an F1 engine in anger bouncing off of hard structures in their neighborhood; I really doubt the comparatively mild drone of highway noise and the urban environment will prepare them for the sound. Even the workers at Indy told me that despite hosting CART, IRL and NASCAR; nothing was as loud as F1.

The simple fact that Monza, a location with a HISTORY of racing has issues with noise complaints tells me nobody with earshot of a fantasy track close to NYC will let it happen. Especially if they are new residents in new housing or wealthy and influential residents in ANY housing. Even Manhattan has signs in certain neighborhoods AND fines for honking your horn, something unheard of 20 years ago when I lived there.

The new venue hurdle is impossible to clear. It's not about what could be, it's about what will be. People don't like change, despite what they say at election time. Talk to folks about building a prison, halfway house, homeless shelter or something as seemingly innocuous as resurrecting rail service on an abandoned right of way near their house and you'll get a taste of how the, "can I build a race car track in your neighborhood" question will go.

Do you think property values will go UP with a loud racetrack and massive traffic jams nearby.

Do you think in THIS real estate market that anyone wants to even take a chance on the effect?

And then there is the whole GREEN thing and environmental concerns, permits and union issues in possibly the strongest union area in the US, bla, bla, bla...

Nobody would love an F1 race more than me at a location I could get to in my car in an hour, but when you think about finding someone, ANYONE willing to spend billions to build a venue and then pay exorbitant fees for an once-a-year event that MIGHT draw as many people as a Yankees home stand and be gone in 5 years...

...you realize in the foreseeable future it will Indy or nothing.

The smart money is on nothing.

[Flyin Ryan]

There will never be an F1 street race in the New York area, period. Any person that even attempts to bring it up should immediately be given this response with no further talk on the matter. If we're entertaining that possibility we might as well entertain F1 racing in Anchorage because it's just as likely, New York is a complete and absolute pipe dream with no basis in reality and the target population would be at best indifferent, at worst hostile, to the series coming there.

And who would pay for it? The locals? Good luck getting that to happen Maybe if Bernie took on the costs of promoting himself but we all know the likelihood of that occurring.

If F1 is going to return, they're going to have to sacrifice something. Americans get along fine without the series, it's F1 that wants to be here. Bernie once stated that the problem with American promoters and why we don't have a race is that American promoters want to make money, which tells a person everything they need to know about how F1 operates. If a promoter is not making money, why is he organizing an event? Joe Saward for example after the Olympics failure once proffered a potential event in the streets of Chicago near the Lake Michigan shoreline. I asked him in a response to his post: who would promote such an event? It's going to cost the promoter millions of dollars to build the track and pay the F1 sanctioning fee, Bernie keeps most of the sponsorship money, and the promoter will have little attendance at a street course to pay off his costs of running it. Bernie feeds off government subsidies overpaying him on a grand scale, and that's just not going to happen in the U.S., at least for auto racing.

[tblincoe]

Any time Bernie's made a comment like this, its been after at least preliminary discussions on the matter have taken place. Look at the lead up to any of the current or future events on the calendar and they all started with initial mentions such as this one.

We all know the general trends and arguments against any such event in any US city, yet alone NYC. Yet, it would appear that this site has enough potential that Bernie's commented on it. All I've done is examine why it's even worth mentioning.

To categorically deny the possibility is fine if that's your opinion, but I don't think that discussion of the situation should be completed foreclosed...

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by tblincoe

Any time Bernie's made a comment like this, its been after at least preliminary discussions on the matter have taken place. Look at the lead up to any of the current or future events on the calendar and they all started with initial mentions such as this one.

We all know the general trends and arguments against any such event in any US city, yet alone NYC. Yet, it would appear that this site has enough potential that Bernie's commented on it. All I've done is examine why it's even worth mentioning.

The only reason it has any potential is because of money, there is no other consideration being given to it by Bernie other than money. But he doesn't realize that New Yorkers don't give a sh*t about the sport. There was far more interest by the general public in what racefans do exist in the NYC area in NASCAR building a short-track on Staten Island, which would be less intrusive on the surroundings than the F1 circuit on their respective weekends if F1 was going the street course route, and that couldn't even get done and was axed never to be heard from again after one public hearing. So if that, which had more public interest than F1 would, couldn't get done, what hope F1?

(Note: I thought NASCAR wanting to build a track on Staten Island was dumb too for reasons that have since become clear after they attempted to do so.)

If Bernie has stated his comments publicly on a race in New York, I'll wager money it was not after preliminary discussions, it was after he got done smoking pot. Not to mention, we still have to find some local promoter to pay for the event and give F1 its sanctioning fee money. Who is doing that with the 99% certain prospect of losing money? The mafia-infested NJSEA?

To categorically deny the possibility is fine if that's your opinion, but I don't think that discussion of the situation should be completed foreclosed...

Allright, let's discuss F1 racing on the streets of Anchorage then.

[bjohnsonsmith]

As said I can't argue against the location per se, it has good transport but as I said earlier in this thread it will take too long for it to be approved, the state government runs to it's own timetable not Bernie's.

However, I don't see it being approved at all. There probably have been some prelimanary talks but it's going to cost millions and I don't see the state government being able justify that sort of expense for a race track, when there are other more pressing issues, especially in the current ecomomic climate. I don't think anyone in their right mind would be willing risk making a financial decision that could be politically very unpopular. If Bernie wants his race then the they should say to him, fine you build the track.