ERC 2013

[AndyS]

Hmmm, this looks a bit more serious now. A promoter with little knowledge of the sport is a bit worrying. Are we also going to start seeing the 'you only get an event if your willing to pay our excessive fee' attitude as well.

[rallycrossnl]

Nothing to change??
Less then 6000 people in Belgium. Never were you able to get a 'frietje' within 5 minutes during a break. This year there were hardly any rows in front of food and drinks stands.
Whom do you think pays your sport? The Gazillion drivers? Fewer and fewer spectators?
Sponsors and contracts is who. Less people = less income=the end. Just like you predict the way the promotor (as in the rumors) will end.
The rumored ideas aren't perfect in my eyes, but they are a step forward towards a future.
Hanging on 'sports heritage' is what I call being scared for the future.
Indeed, live coverage is key, any person bringing in money through contracts, sponsors etc can tell you that. Not, I repeat, Not 5 group B cars with drivers that come from the other classes (forget getting 30 NEW drivers for a group B class, not gonna happen, not now, not tomorrow, not ever) for more drivers and cars on race day.
If we all join the clubs that get the races on the tracks and try to have influence during meetings (read your clubs rules about how to do that BEFORE going to the meetings) then we can have our say about what is going to happen. Shouting 'in the yesteryears everything was better' at a forum is not going to help.

[rallyloverke]

Also my first thinking was f***** . But better start thinking.

Without sponsors the cars will disappear also. Better 16 good attractive cars than nothing ... And maybe some drivers who don't/can't participate in the newly formed erc go back to national series and we will see more than 1 to 4 cars in the national series?

[chunder]

Without sponsors the cars will disappear! What a lod of rubbish

They are all there now for goodness sake, OK they are not huge NASCAR style sponsors but there are a decent amount of cars and a lot of tese drivers have come from the smaller classes and stayed with their driver like Hvaal, Holte, Timur, Lysen and previous guys like Nottveit and the like.

Sponsors are there, the people who run ERC now just need to do more, not sell their soul to a load of poeple that dont know anything about rallycross other than the gameshow that is GRC.

[AndyS]

I don't think people are desperate to hang onto the past. I for one think the current ERC offer is average at best and needs change. The GRC have had some good ideas and some not so good ones as well. I feel they have wondered too far away from what rallycross is.

I'm all for change but not if you end up with a promoter who knows nothing about the sport other than what they've seen on You Tube and at a GRC event and is only in it to make money.

[Barrie]

Originally Posted by chunder

Without sponsors the cars will disappear! What a lod of rubbish

They are all there now for goodness sake, OK they are not huge NASCAR style sponsors but there are a decent amount of cars and a lot of tese drivers have come from the smaller classes and stayed with their driver like Hvaal, Holte, Timur, Lysen and previous guys like Nottveit and the like.

Sponsors are there, the people who run ERC now just need to do more, not sell their soul to a load of poeple that dont know anything about rallycross other than the gameshow that is GRC.

Good post Chunder, spot on.

[chasing cars]

Im not against the idea of a "main event" consisting of drivers contracted to do the whole season but there should be a chance for other drivers to qualify for it.

So if I had the chance to make changes to these proposals I would do something like this:

I'd have12 seeded drivers who are contracted to the whole season who go straight into the sunday afternoon 3 hour event. These are the guys the circuits can promote their events around.

I would then add 2 home drivers to the 12, perhaps the first 2 in that countries national championship. I think its important to have some extra home interest and it certainly adds to the atmosphere.

I would then have 6 more drivers who would qualify from 2 or 3 rounds of heats earlier in the weekend, giving everyone who wants to compete in the ERC a chance to do so. This would mean 20 drivers into the main televised event with heats as now then maybe 2 semi finals and final, or A,B,C finals as now.

I also thinks its important that the super 1600 and touring car classes are on both days with their semis or C & B finals late on Sunday morning and their A finals just before the supercar final giving them some tv exposure and the supercar drivers more time to prepare their cars.

Anyway that just my idea and showing that though im old school im not anti change as long as they are in everyones best interest. No doubt some will turn their noses up against it, if so what other ideas have you got?

[sashchris]

Sounds good to me chasing cars
I think it's absolutely imperative to allow everyone the chance to compete so having the 6 cars qualifying from the first day does just that plus you have some super cars to see on the 1st day
Also think the finals should still be C B A so as not to loose the drama of someone coming thru from C to B to A but just the winner moving up rather than the 1st and 2nd we have now
And definitely agree the super 1600 and touring cars should have there finals in the 'main event' you still have good looking cars and invariably young and talented drivers in these categories and if these categories are somewhat pushed out to being a lowly supporting cast will such talent begin to look at other forms of motorsport rather than rallycross and considering that most of our current top supercar drivers have come from such categories where will drivers of future come from.

[1975DCS]

Rumors from the drivers in the paddock suggests that thus far 98% disagreed with the plans, makes you wonder who the other ones are?

If they truly want a televised sport I would suggest at least 32-40 SuperCar entries with 16 to the finals like now, but make the finals more like a 10 lap race.

I do like the bigger grids and that since 2011 B- and C-final winners and runner up can continue, so I wouldn't change that. But why limit the number to only 16 entries? 4 heats and it is all over! Super 1600 proved this weekend that large entry number of great cars are much nicer to watch than half the number of drivers like Touring Cars.

I don't think spectators hang to the Group B era, but with all those limiting regulations you just know it could be so much better! if I had any wishes about changes, for me they would be:

1. much more qualifying rounds and time on Saturday and all heats on Sunday.
2. a little bit more noise from the SuperCars as they are very quiet in comparison with other normally aspirated divisions. If you go to Zolder you need headphones, why do they have to be so quiet?
3. a little bit more power by less restrictions (50mm instead of 45mm?) as the SuperCars are very limited in comparison with Super 1600's. Why would you want to limit a relative small 2.0 engine anyway? I mean they are not called SuperCars for nothing!

[1975DCS]

And without wishing to be rude to the drivers, but the Touring Cars are the weakest class in my opinion.

Why? Most of the cars aren't that pretty (*), most of the cars have a strange stance on the wheels, they look unnaturally and I don't think they representate the modern world very well.

I much rather watch Super 1600, they look modern and crisp and despite their expensive engines and body kits, they much more representate small hot hatches of today.

But hey everybody onto their own, some like the tail out cars, so they probably deserve a place after all...

* Pedro Bonnet's C30 and some of the Fiesta MK7's do look great...

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by rallyloverke

Also my first thinking was f***** . But better start thinking.

Without sponsors the cars will disappear also. Better 16 good attractive cars than nothing ... And maybe some drivers who don't/can't participate in the newly formed erc go back to national series and we will see more than 1 to 4 cars in the national series?

It probably also mean that van Mechelen, Coox and Scheveneels couldn't drive at all last weekend...

[rallycrossnl]

I may not being expressing my self clearly enough. Not only the drivers are depending on outside money (sponsors) The tracks are too.
Less then 6000 people in Belgium means less income. Less people seeing the adds. Less money from the sponsors. Catering contract sold cheaper etc etc etc.
Since the 14 or 15 clubs need to spend more and more to keep themselfs within the top 10 (top 5 idealy, who invests in the number 10???) tracks, the sums are easy. All outside the top10 loose anyway, numbers 10 to 5 struggle.
TV= more income per square inch = being able to have an EC round in your country.
Example? 1 club bailed out for 2012 ERC cos of not enough money. Remember? http://www.rallycrossworld.com/2011/...plans-a-break/
This all without going into who runs the new format, or the form of it, that's rather uninteresting at this point cos we only know 2 or 3 rumors.
Deny reality all you want, the rest of us are looking into the future.

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by rallycrossnl

I may not being expressing my self clearly enough.

But you are also forgetting the point there is a financial crisis going on for a few years now and almost all sponsored sports suffer at this moment. And despite lower attendance the sport is already televised, which haven't been the case for every year in it's history. I think the lower attendance also has to do with the disappearance of about half the (Scandinavian) Top 10 drivers.

The question is will this big TV deal be a good thing or a bad thing. Like most Rallycross fans, I think it is pretty bad when such a broadcasting company can have such a big influence. What's next? Having ramps for jumps? Oh and the better the TV coverage, the less people go to the circuit! Similar like you see in Football.

But I guess your are 1 out of 10 who is for this deal?

[Mad Mark Watson]

as a certain wise dry Yorkshireman put it !!
basically they want young kids who wear they caps the wrong way round and their laces undone and **** to the people who made rallycross what it is now !

a sad day for rallycross !


i just signed a driver petition a lot of names on it !

[Janneman]

There something in it to say our sport has to move forward. Forward means TV. TV means spectators. And they want 'known faces' (F1 without Alonso/Raikonen/Schumi would loose a lot of spectators for a while).

So there is the point of 16 appointed drivers (frankly I believe it would be 4 appointed big teams such as the teams of Hansen/Eriksson/Labouille).

There is nothing wrong in debating about that!

Very wrong is to put all we have in hands of an USA-based company with no roots in rallycross and put all who love rallycross (drivers as well as spectators) on the sideline. That's not only wrong it's plain stupid as it's clear that this means the large part of us from the start have only resistance to the plans.

If I just take a look in this topic I see maybe 10 ideas which are better as the proposal. A pitty FIA just listen to the big teams (learned nothing about the way the same big teams introduced JRX...). FIA is not a democracy but people who watch rallycross for over 30 years could very easily have better ideas, pitty FIA doesn't want to listen...

Regards,
Jan

[chunder]

PLease please

TV is definately not the be all and end all. On its own it is not enough

It needs to be well put together and good for the sponsors who are involved.

Simply having tv hasnt worked for UK rallycross or many other sports.

[chasing cars]

Originally Posted by rallycrossnl

Nothing to change??
Less then 6000 people in Belgium. Never were you able to get a 'frietje' within 5 minutes during a break. This year there were hardly any rows in front of food and drinks stands.

You will have even less time to wait on the Sunday morning next year if this goes ahead! Of course we dont want to see circuits make a loss but no one is forcing them to hold a round of the ERC, in fact with more than 13 countries keen to have a round finance wouldn't appear to be a major problem for most venues.

So far there seems to be little support for these proposals. Apart from here, theres alot of negative comments on ERC24 from both fans and drivers. I guess the only people that are in favour of this are those few with a self interest which says it all really.
I see theres a rumour (so many of them at the moment) that its a Dutch journalist involved in this, is it just a coincidence that Rallycrossworld have given this big story no coverage at all??

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by chasing cars

You will have even less time to wait on the Sunday morning next year if this goes ahead!

Same for me!

But even at this moment it is hard for "non die hard" visitors not to see all heats on one race day. Especially when you have to wait for one and a half hour between 2nd and 3rd heat. Although this gives mechanics a bit of time, but otherwise... But imagine what waiting times we would have with a low entry level?!

[rallycrossnl]

Originally Posted by 1975DCS

But I guess your are 1 out of 10 who is for this deal?

What deal? There are no details, so again, what deal?
Promotor trying to upgrade our sport? Yeah I'm for that. Look at the dutch rounds since they use one. And no I don't think they are ex-rallycrossdrivers.
Again, put more clearly, I (nore do you) don't know details, so there isn't a lot to be for or against. Changes are needed. And if that is within the FIA or outside, I don't care. The FIA bible needs to be re-written. The thing is a copy and paste work of a 10 y/o. Start a BeNeLux/De/UK/Fr series outside of the fia? I'm For! But then all tracks/clubs have to work with each other, not against.

Me forgetting that there is a financial crisis? You're just being silly of course? When there's less money around, you need to work harder to get your part. Be smarter then the rest. Get more attention then the local bicyle run, the local dog show, the local fleamarket. Attract more people, around the track or (here comes the scary bit for all 'yesteryear people was better') in front of their telly. More viewers = more income. That part is really simple to understand. No there isn't a 100% guarantee to succes. Nobody is saying that. But sitting still is a 100% guarantee of going the wrong way. Slowly but certain.
Pointing to other sports not doing well with a promotor etc is sandbox kindergarden mentality 'but he did it alsooooooooo'.
When we as clubmembers move our club by votes to be brave enough to step outside the FIA when they sign the contract, what do you think needs to be done to get the 'Not the FIA ERC' on the map? Somebody needs to write a format and bring it on the tracks aka a promotor. Yeah that may well be an ex-rallycrosser, he better be indeed. But it'll be as hard and dirty as what lurkes over the horizon now. Don't ever forget that.


' in fact with more than 13 countries keen to have a round finance wouldn't appear to be a major problem for most venues.'
Euhm, well.. the tracks/clubs are getting points for other things then the race. Loads and loads of stuff they have to invest in that have nothing to do with rallycross. And that needs to be upped each year to get ahead of the others
Besides that, not having to try to have an ERC round? I think a lot of the tracks run finacially year round on what the ERC round brings in the till. So... national races are financed by the ERC round. Or not?
You don't have to think the same as I do, but atleast try to understand what goes on in the world behind the tracks when raceday is over. See the big picture. And read what I write. I didn't say anywhere I'm for 16 cars format, a sunday only format, a 3 hour show format, a jump format. No where.

[1975DCS]

The deal was pretty clear for all drivers: 16 SuperCars entries in order to fit the (live) TV schedule, so... The question is do we need live TV coverage and is this the price we have to pay for? Or will normal TV coverage like now be enough? There really is no comparison with the external promotion the Eurocircuit has done last year, as these didn't change the format in anyway! Now we have a 3rd party that want to take over the rights of the complete series, if that is good or bad thing time will tell, but the ideas proposed so far has not put a smile on my face, nor most fans and drivers...

[rallycrossnl]

Let me read the details in the contract so I can say your right. Please, send them to me if you have them and I'm happy to kneel before you and say sorry. I think I don't I'll be getting mail by you.
If drivers and tracks are scared to go along with this, don't sign.
FIA ERC with no drivers but a $$$ promotor and nothing to show on TV..... 1+1, again. It's really simple, but if all people in rallycross get scared and just kneejerk react negative, all is lost.
Be/Nl/De/Fr/Uk/Ir i.e. West Europa championship RallyRacing anyone? Without the FIA who didn't do much good to our sport in the past 10 years anyway?
Again, and I mean it, Again, read what I write, don't read what you want to read in my words. I no post by me you can read I'm for a 3 hour, 7 gapjumps per track, 16 cars, sunday only etc event. I'm all for rewritting the FIA bible. And for upping the attention our sport gets in any media. (read in any of my posts where it says TV, any media).
TV, Live stream, pay TV full coverage, BBC2 prime time slot before Top Gear, Payed streams on the internet, Ipod/pad/poddle/gadget Apps showing live timing, FanVision(like) etc etc etc.. I don't care how. Attention means income. For tracks, Clubs and the Drivers.
Rumor has it, one driver made sure another driver got some pocket money so he could make the travel to Valkenswaard. That's how deep some drivers are in trouble.

"Now we have a 3rd party that want to take over the right"
We? If drivers or tracks or clubs don't sign up to this 'deal', the FIA and the promotor don't have anything to show. Please understand that there is power left in us all to set it as much as possible to our needs. If and only if we don't kneejerk into total numbness out of fear. The 'never seen a racecar before, pink trouser and difficult framed glasses wearing promotor boys move fast, but they are no gods.

' You will have even less time to wait on the Sunday morning next year if this goes ahead!'
Then stop it. Your track/club has meetings, read their rules about proposing alternatives or blocking by votes. Don't think this the only alternative there is left.
The tracks are there, the cars are there, there are drivers... They vote with their feet (so to say)

But please, lets all kick out todays FIA rulebook it's so full of holes that it is a real miracle that there aren't protest over every run/heat/manche/final. And write one that UPs our sport, with the 21th century in mind, not the 1980's. And lets have new people in charge every 3/4/5 years (chairman, young(ish) people with a hart for sport, and not a selfpleasuring addiction to importantness meetings, overrulling the clerck of the course and the race director (put in power by themselfs, tackled and bound by them again) so those don't dare to make good, sportive decissions.

Besides that, france fries in the morning, yuk. And I don't know what self interest you do think I have by this 'deal', I can tell you I don't have any.

Promotor = Bad.
www.ekrallycross.nl says 16.000 spectators. 10.000 more then Belgium. (I'm not sure but they, Belgium, don't use a promotor I think)
No the dutch promotor didn't make a new format, the club has to stick to the FIA rules when they want to have a ERC round so it would be silly have them make a format. They have set new standards for all other events in ERC. (Yeah I know, holjes = God)

[Janneman]

Originally Posted by chunder

PLease please

TV is definately not the be all and end all. On its own it is not enough

It needs to be well put together and good for the sponsors who are involved.

Simply having tv hasnt worked for UK rallycross or many other sports.

I strongly believe tv IS the way forward.

It's more the matter how it is done. Live reporting means you have to follow something like this (rather stupid) FIA idea. Not live reporting means you can stick with the nowadays format but still have the commercial benefit from tv.

OK changing nothing is also an option but not good for the long term.

Regards,
Jan

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by rallycrossnl

Let me read the details in the contract so I can say your right. Please, send them to me if you have them and I'm happy to kneel before you and say sorry. I think I don't I'll be getting mail by you.

Of course you know I can't send you as this is a proposal and I am not a driver so sure won't get this. But have you spoken any drivers or others deeply involved when you visit Belgium (if you did visit)? Why do I need to prove you anything if you can't prove the other way round? I spoke to Dutch, Belgian and Norwegian drivers, all with the same story (but different opinion).

Like you, I have never mentioned I am against a 3rd party taking over, but not if this would mean 16 Super Cars. I am all up for a 3rd party taking over if this would benefit the sport in general!

But is Live TV coverage better than the TV coverage we see at this moment? And let's not forget: there is much more coverage than previous years! You can go live, see on Motors TV, see on RTL7, etc, etc.

Comparising entry numbers for countries is not really fair (at this moment). And I would say the better the TV coverage will be, the less people go out to the track? Even when you can buy entrance tickets with discount on Marktplaats, which is extra commercial attention.

This year the spectators on Valkenswaard were down compared to last year. i don't think they have reached 16k spectatornumber. Shame, as Valkenswaard has improved it's appeal in my opinion since last year.

This year Höljes hasn't been god in my opinion... I guess because of the American clash, but also France have been down somehow...

[Janneman]

Originally Posted by 1975DCS

This year the spectators on Valkenswaard were down compared to last year. i don't think they have reached 16k spectatornumber. Shame, as Valkenswaard has improved it's appeal in my opinion since last year.

That's as simple as could be. Drive 500 km's for rallycross or have livestream for 10 Euro with friends and 'some' beer.

Livestream or live television sure has an effect on the number of spectators.

Regards,
Jan

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by Janneman

That's as simple as could be. Drive 500 km's for rallycross or have livestream for 10 Euro with friends and 'some' beer.

Livestream or live television sure has an effect on the number of spectators.

Regards,
Jan

Exactly! That's why I watched last saturday at home... Too bad about the 180k resolution (and that I couldn't stream it through my Apple TV)...