Where to for Caterham?

[Paradise City]

I think the mushrooming costs are going to have to be curbed for the entire grid. The dizzy teams maybe the first to fall but the bigger racing conglomerates will ultimately be dragged down too when the cycle is over. Handing out crutches to the dizzy teams just postpones things.

Mosely is correct. Todt needs to shelve his democratic principles and force upon the teams a budget restriction regime with serious prohibitions on creative accounting practices. Give FIA duly delegated inspectors broad powers to inspect books randomly and without warning.

[OZ_HCR32]

Whilst you want to stop short of customer cars, I think teams should be allowed to have more meaningful technical partnerships. Perhaps the bottom 3 teams should be allowed to buy tubs and then develop their own aero and mechanical package. Help them spend what money they have on a known quality tub and develop it i the direction of their technical partner

[Nicholosophy]

People seem to forget that when the new teams were first admitted to the championship there were rules about tight budget restrictions in place, they were able to buy customer cars and so on. Then after being admitted the other F1 teams threw a tanty and so most of that was reversed.

The whole itea of those rule changes was to make it possible for low budget teams to come into F1 and compete. They came, got screwed over and are now doing the best they can with what they have.

[schead]

Originally Posted by NickoGP

People seem to forget that when the new teams were first admitted to the championship there were rules about tight budget restrictions in place, they were able to buy customer cars and so on. Then after being admitted the other F1 teams threw a tanty and so most of that was reversed.

The whole itea of those rule changes was to make it possible for low budget teams to come into F1 and compete. They came, got screwed over and are now doing the best they can with what they have.

The whole idea of letting pikey teams into F1 was flawed. F1 is supposed to be the pinacle of motorsports, so if you can't afford it, don't try. I think that the 3 new teams have proven that the idea is flawed, and should just be allowed to die by introducing a huge entrance fee. Eight or nine real teams competing is all we have at the moment. The rest are just getting in the way. New teams should only be allowed in if they can prove that they aren't pikey Branson style teams, with a total budget roughly equal to Ferrari's stationery budget.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by schead

with a total budget roughly equal to Ferrari's stationery budget.

Say it isn't so. Ferrari have a budget for not moving?

Oh sorry, *stationery* rather than stationary. My mistake!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by schead

The whole idea of letting pikey teams into F1 was flawed. F1 is supposed to be the pinacle of motorsports, so if you can't afford it, don't try. I think that the 3 new teams have proven that the idea is flawed, and should just be allowed to die by introducing a huge entrance fee. Eight or nine real teams competing is all we have at the moment. The rest are just getting in the way. New teams should only be allowed in if they can prove that they aren't pikey Branson style teams, with a total budget roughly equal to Ferrari's stationery budget.

Even with a huge budget; Toyota style; the new entrants have their hands tied behind their backs. The existing team value guarantee clause?

[schead]

Originally Posted by wnut

Even with a huge budget; Toyota style; the new entrants have their hands tied behind their backs. The existing team value guarantee clause?

Err, Toyota scored 278.5 points, which is 278.5 points more than any of the 3 Mosley teams. They scored 13 podiums, which is 13 more than the Mosley teams. They also scored 3 poles and 3 fastest laps, which is 3 more poles and fastest laps than the Mosley teams. In fact, in their first year of competition, when points were scored for only the top 6 places, Toyota scored 2 points, which is 2 more points than the pikey teams have managed in 3 years when points are awarded to the top 10.

Toyota may not have achieved what they should have, but at least they did achieve!! The pikey teams only turn up to slow other drivers. It isn't as if they even provide seats for up and coming drivers. They provide seats for drivers with cash. Caterham started life with good intentions, giving Jarno and Heikki seats, but since they canned Jarno for a Russian pay driver, and now look likely to can the Russian pay driver and Heikki because of not enough cash, they are just like Smiley Branson's team.

There is no reason whatsoever for Caterham, Marrussia, or HRT to exist. Personally, I would like to see all 3 bugger off to Formula Ford.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by schead

Err, Toyota scored 278.5 points, which is 278.5 points more than any of the 3 Mosley teams. They scored 13 podiums, which is 13 more than the Mosley teams. They also scored 3 poles and 3 fastest laps, which is 3 more poles and fastest laps than the Mosley teams. In fact, in their first year of competition, when points were scored for only the top 6 places, Toyota scored 2 points, which is 2 more points than the pikey teams have managed in 3 years when points are awarded to the top 10.

Toyota may not have achieved what they should have, but at least they did achieve!! The pikey teams only turn up to slow other drivers. It isn't as if they even provide seats for up and coming drivers. They provide seats for drivers with cash. Caterham started life with good intentions, giving Jarno and Heikki seats, but since they canned Jarno for a Russian pay driver, and now look likely to can the Russian pay driver and Heikki because of not enough cash, they are just like Smiley Branson's team.

There is no reason whatsoever for Caterham, Marrussia, or HRT to exist. Personally, I would like to see all 3 bugger off to Formula Ford.

My point was that Toyota struggled with an unlimited budget.
The new teams can't be expected to perform miracles on limited resources, they do provide a valuable depth to the field though.
Should they be protected through resource restriction agreements? No ways!

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by schead

The pikey teams only turn up to slow other drivers. It isn't as if they even provide seats for up and coming drivers. They provide seats for drivers with cash. Caterham started life with good intentions, giving Jarno and Heikki seats, but since they canned Jarno for a Russian pay driver, and now look likely to can the Russian pay driver and Heikki because of not enough cash, they are just like Smiley Branson's team.

There is no reason whatsoever for Caterham, Marrussia, or HRT to exist. Personally, I would like to see all 3 bugger off to Formula Ford.

Why do you have to use racist language to make your point?

Pathetic and offensive to everyone involved in those teams. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[schead]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

Why do you have to use racist language to make your point?

Pathetic and offensive to everyone involved in those teams. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Racist language???? I am presuming by your location that you are a student. Don't worry son, the sanctimonious imagining of racism everywhere will disappear when you grow up. I used to go to Essex uni too.

[Adam43]

Let's move on...

[ss_collins]

SChead - You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about the new teams. Personally I think they are great - F1 needs small teams, it is part of the DNA of the sport, for every Red Bull or McLaren there is always a Ligier, Larrousse, Minardi, Forti or Eurobrun.

Oh and Flavio has many years on you by the way.

Caterham I think is a very well placed team, the way TF uses it to promote his othe business interests is very clever. I think they will be around for quite some time. Can they get to the front of the grid? I don't think so until a stronger or enforced RRA is introduced. But does Caterham need to challenge Red Bull? No.

[Bononi]

Ok, relax guys !

[wnut]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

SChead - You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about the new teams. Personally I think they are great - F1 needs small teams, it is part of the DNA of the sport, for every Red Bull or McLaren there is always a Ligier, Larrousse, Minardi, Forti or Eurobrun.

Oh and Flavio has many years on you by the way.

Caterham I think is a very well placed team, the way TF uses it to promote his othe business interests is very clever. I think they will be around for quite some time. Can they get to the front of the grid? I don't think so until a stronger or enforced RRA is introduced. But does Caterham need to challenge Red Bull? No.

The RRA will just further disadvantage new entrants ....

[schead]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

SChead - You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about the new teams. Personally I think they are great - F1 needs small teams, it is part of the DNA of the sport, for every Red Bull or McLaren there is always a Ligier, Larrousse, Minardi, Forti or Eurobrun.

Oh and Flavio has many years on you by the way.

Caterham I think is a very well placed team, the way TF uses it to promote his othe business interests is very clever. I think they will be around for quite some time. Can they get to the front of the grid? I don't think so until a stronger or enforced RRA is introduced. But does Caterham need to challenge Red Bull? No.

All of the bolded teams scored well within the top 8 in their first 3 seasons. Eurobrun was also a crap team. They still did better than the pikey Mosley teams though. These teams are more like Andrea Moda and Mastercard Lola. The fact that the likes of Eurobrun, Pacific and Simtek achieved more than any of them in less time, despite being laughable says it all.

The likes of Andrea Moda didn't deserve to be in F1, just like Marussia et al don't these days.

Still don't understand the "racist language" thing. After checking out Flavio's profile, I do understand why he wants to defend these teams though. Knowing that his boss is on the verge of bankruptcy obviously means that he will be likely need to approach the pikey Mosley teams for a job. This doesn't mean that they deserve to be in F1.

[Marbot]

The 'New' teams are performing way better than the likes of Minardi, etc ever did. STR are performing way better than Minardi ever did, and they aren't a huge step ahead of Caterham.

They may not be scoring points, but they aren't getting lapped three or four times during a race as was the case with Minardi, etc, when they weren't lucking into the odd point or two due to vastly inferior reliability of F1 cars in general, at that time.

As said previously, Minardi also did not score any points during their first three seasons.

[Zen]

As said previously, Minardi also did not score any points during their first three seasons.[/QUOTE]

But Minardi finished 8th in one race of their 'First' season, admittedly because others retired... These three bottom teams also rely on others not finishing and they are only racing amongst themselves for the honour of being the best of the rest .

As said before F1 only scored down to 6th place back in the day no comparisons can be drawn with Minardi.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by schead

Still don't understand the "racist language" thing. After checking out Flavio's profile, I do understand why he wants to defend these teams though. Knowing that his boss is on the verge of bankruptcy obviously means that he will be likely need to approach the pikey Mosley teams for a job. This doesn't mean that they deserve to be in F1.

HA HA HA. You've made my day.

First I'm a student, now I'm an F1 team member? I wish I were either You should change your screen name to Inspector Clouseau.

Anyway, the three teams you seem to be against so vociferously don't appear to be leaving, play an important part in driver and engineer development and most people will think that on balance that's a good thing.

I've no idea what you read at Essex but I bet it wasn't Politics.

[Greem]

From a very, very wide and realistic perspective, nobody deserves to be in F1. It's a sport (and a business). If a team wants to enter, there are set criteria and if they fulfil those criteria *whether they have a race winning car or not* then they can enter if a space is available.

As I have previously written, the "agreement" between the teams and the CRH is too heavily weighted towards the grandee teams - those who feel, rightly or wrongly, that they are in some way more deserving of the money than others. EJ summed it up nicely all those years ago with his description of "The Piranha Club".

So far as I am concerned, if the teams and the CRH adopted a more pragmatic approach and allowed a small but larger fraction of the income of F1 to drip down to the smaller teams whether they scored points or not we'd have a far more healthy championship down the back of the grid.

But they won't, so we are where we are.

[Paradise City]

Every Team on the grid now deserves to be there. Yeah, even HRT and Marussia.

[Bononi]

It's an unfair world...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Bononi

It's an unfair world...

And it's getting unfairer by the minute.

[Zen]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

HA HA HA. You've made my day.


Anyway, the three teams you seem to be against so vociferously don't appear to be leaving, play an important part in driver and engineer development and most people will think that on balance that's a good thing.

Where is the important contribution to driver and engineer development at Caherham, both drivers are established drivers both engineers are veterans of many teams including Toyota and 90% of the rest of the team are all seasoned pro's
And then there's Gascoyne hes been around the block a few times

Or did you mean the development of the team owners and CEO admitted they are rookies

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Zen

both engineers are veterans of many teams

Caterham only has two engineers?!! If so, they're doing a mighty fine job.

[Zen]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Caterham only has two engineers?!! If so, they're doing a mighty fine job.

I stand corrected 'Race engineers'


And they are doing a mighty fine job given what they have to work with