[Tech Issue] Will F1 be boring in 2014?

[Pingguest]

I do expect the 2014 season to be exciting, albeit equally shallowly as the previous seasons. Artificial solutions such as artificially degrading tyres and the drag reduction system create some excitement but are far away from pure racing and do not address the true problems, being the aerodynamics and the on-going convergence of the cars. In fact, the rules are the true cause of the latter.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I can think of a few reasons why Red Bull might not win both championships next season and none of them have anything to do with budget.

And all of them are probably wrong!

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by Casper

Oh, I get it alright. What you fail to understand it that the clever ideas do not stop because of budget, the budget is irrelevant. Having no money or a smaller amount of money does not stop the brain working and what most don't understand is that the smaller the budget the more impact that the clever people have. They understand the constraints and how their thinking can work within a budget and how to maximise what they can achieve within a budget. Give RBR and Marrussa the same budget and an empty workshop and ask them to design something specific and I bet RBR comes up with the better answer. If you can grasp that then you begin to understand that a budget cap achieves nothing except making everyone feel all warm and fuzzy.

My prediction is that if a cap was introduced the front running teams would be further in front not pulled back to the pack as everyone seems to want to do. Why would anyone entertain the notion of dumbing down the racing, that is just plain stupid and guaranteed to erode the interest and popularity of the series. What needs to be done is just the opposite, raise the standard of those who are not competitive to a level where they add to the spectacle of the racing. Those that are paid the big dollars should be moving in that direction, that's what they get paid the money for. If they don't they won't be around as the series will founder in mediocrity.

OK Casper, I finally get it. You must be very young to believe any of that, which is fine. So was I once.

"Clever" as you put it always follows the money. Of course there are very clever people in other, smaller teams than RBR, but the moment a Marussia engineer comes up with anything better they will buy him or her and that, is the way life works.

In my view a "sport" shouldn't mirror the behavior of the City or Wall Street, that's all. A budget cap would lessen that possibility and make the racing better for the fans.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

OK Casper, I finally get it. You must be very young to believe any of that, which is fine. So was I once.

"Clever" as you put it always follows the money. Of course there are very clever people in other, smaller teams than RBR, but the moment a Marussia engineer comes up with anything better they will buy him or her and that, is the way life works.

In my view a "sport" shouldn't mirror the behavior of the City or Wall Street, that's all. A budget cap would lessen that possibility and make the racing better for the fans.

The teams should have to pay transfer fees for stealing other teams staff.
Perhaps the teams should be ranked according to the order that they finished the previous years championship, and any transfer of a person to a higher finishing team should attract a transfer fee!
Why should the under privileged finance staff development for the well off?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

OK Casper, I finally get it. You must be very young to believe any of that, which is fine. So was I once.

"Clever" as you put it always follows the money. Of course there are very clever people in other, smaller teams than RBR, but the moment a Marussia engineer comes up with anything better they will buy him or her and that, is the way life works.

In my view a "sport" shouldn't mirror the behavior of the City or Wall Street, that's all. A budget cap would lessen that possibility and make the racing better for the fans.

Reality usually does not match out perceptions. The mods reckon I have been a bad boy, that made my day!!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Casper

Reality usually does not match out perceptions. The mods reckon I have been a bad boy, that made my day!!

Using bad language on 10/10ths will get you slapped on the side of the head!

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Using bad language on 10/10ths will get you slapped on the side of the head!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

I do expect the 2014 season to be exciting, albeit equally shallowly as the previous seasons. Artificial solutions such as artificially degrading tyres and the drag reduction system create some excitement but are far away from pure racing and do not address the true problems, being the aerodynamics and the on-going convergence of the cars. In fact, the rules are the true cause of the latter.

They should have banned aero when it first appeared on racing cars. Banning things gets things done.

If the regulations were to be opened up fully for the 2015 season, what do you think would happen?

Originally Posted by wnut

And all of them are probably wrong!

Hopefully.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I wasn't looking at it from an entertainment point of view, I was looking at it from the point of view that more teams and/or engine manufacturers would be more likely to become part of F1, or at least show more interest in it, if budgets had a more reasonable limit, if not an exactly equal one.

But you're right. Clearly if nothing changes, then Red Bull are destined to win every championship from now until the end of the century because that's what's always happened, even before Red Bull came into F1.

I can think of a few reasons why Red Bull might not win both championships next season and none of them have anything to do with budget.

F1 is confused.

o It wants to be relevant to the motor industry, yet the overwhelming amount of R+D expenditure goes into aero which has no relevance there.

o It wants to, it needs to, be more affordable, yet it seems unable to make it happen.

o It should be the world's best drivers in the world's fastest cars, yet merit has been usurped by money... even in the top teams... and many of those who should be there on a GP weekend are riding shotgun for rich gentlemen in GT series elsewhere.

o It needs to be more entertaining, yet seems unwilling or unable to make this happen.

o Sponsor [and team] budgets are directly related to TV reach, yet with viewing figures declining, the series is being migrated away from free to air which is only going to exacerbate this.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by davyboy

F1 is confused.

o It wants to be relevant to the motor industry, yet the overwhelming amount of R+D expenditure goes into aero which has no relevance there.

o It wants to, it needs to, be more affordable, yet it seems unable to make it happen.

o It should be the world's best drivers in the world's fastest cars, yet merit has been usurped by money... even in the top teams... and many of those who should be there on a GP weekend are riding shotgun for rich gentlemen in GT series elsewhere.

o It needs to be more entertaining, yet seems unwilling or unable to make this happen.

o Sponsor [and team] budgets are directly related to TV reach, yet with viewing figures declining, the series is being migrated away from free to air which is only going to exacerbate this.

No arguments here!

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

I do expect the 2014 season to be exciting, albeit equally shallowly as the previous seasons. Artificial solutions such as artificially degrading tyres and the drag reduction system create some excitement but are far away from pure racing and do not address the true problems, being the aerodynamics and the on-going convergence of the cars. In fact, the rules are the true cause of the latter.

I know I've said something like this before, but...

Purity? Even in athletics, where training methods have evolved almost as far as F1 design, "purity" went out of the window the moment someone realised that putting spikes on their shoes would make them quicker than everyone else.

There has *never been* "pure" racing, especially since the F1 championship was finally given world status.

Show me some examples of pure racing and I'll show you drivers, mechanics, engineers and designers who would stop at nothing to get one over on the other guy. Look at the way significant developments happened - almost always taking everyone else by surprise until everyone else realised that they had to have that thing, or get left behind...

In no particular order:

superchargers
stressed member engines
monocoque construction
disc brakes
turbo engines
wings & aero
'trick' diffusers
special fuels
magnesium bulkheads
beryllium engine parts

...the list goes on, and on, and on. It will continue to go on, and on, and on (a bit like me).

Take off the rose-tinted spectacles and look at the reality. If there's a prize involved - especially money - the people involved will push the rules as far as possible; some may cheat deliberately, some without realising, but they'll bring their interpretation of the rules to bear, and some of them will dominate.

That's racing. Pure, it isn't.

[garcon]

[Marbot]

Most of the current regulations came about because one team, or another, didn't like what another team, or another, was doing to get around the previous set of regulations.

N.O.H. even if I say so myself.

I dread to think what some of the posts will say on here once the infernal contraption engine finally hangs up its crankshaft.

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by garcon

so true

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by davyboy

F1 is confused.

o It wants to be relevant to the motor industry, yet the overwhelming amount of R+D expenditure goes into aero which has no relevance there.

o It wants to, it needs to, be more affordable, yet it seems unable to make it happen.

o It should be the world's best drivers in the world's fastest cars, yet merit has been usurped by money... even in the top teams... and many of those who should be there on a GP weekend are riding shotgun for rich gentlemen in GT series elsewhere.

o It needs to be more entertaining, yet seems unwilling or unable to make this happen.

o Sponsor [and team] budgets are directly related to TV reach, yet with viewing figures declining, the series is being migrated away from free to air which is only going to exacerbate this.

I believe you have got it right,

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Greem

I know I've said something like this before, but...

Purity?

Take off the rose-tinted spectacles and look at the reality. If there's a prize involved - especially money - the people involved will push the rules as far as possible; some may cheat deliberately, some without realising, but they'll bring their interpretation of the rules to bear, and some of them will dominate.

That's racing. Pure, it isn't.

Most of what you've listed goes under technical innovation, this is part of racing!
Domination is also part of racing!

What really gets my goat is when the racing is artificially limited by randomly degrading spec parts! ie TYRES!

Ironically what they have done is narrow the sweet spot of performance to a minute window and surprise surprise this makes Vettel who; repeating myself; is by far the most precise driver I have ever seen, totally dominant!

Some drivers push the car past the limit and then bring it back, Hamilton.

These stupid, tissue paper self detonating Pirelli tyres don't allow them to rag a car at all!

There should be a choice between driving a car absolutely precisely on a soft tyre and ragging it slightly on a harder tyre!

Aero also plays into the smooth precise driving style, as soon as the air flow is disrupted, going sideways, the airflow, downforce and lap time are destroyed.

IMO GP racing should push everything to the absolute limit for as long as possible, an endurance sprint if you will, artificially limiting excellence with dodgy spec parts is just plain not on!

[Marbot]

But the apparent problem with 'hard' tyres is that they get rid of anything that you could call strategy, and F1 being a "team sport" (?), wouldn't it be rather going against the grain if all that happened in the pit lane was some unfortunate driver coming in for a new front wing?

The word "artificial" seems to crop up quite regularly in these threads, but I found such things as the replacing of, for example, engines and gearboxes rather artificial in those rose-tinted golden days gone by. Every time a car so much as got near to the pit garage another engine and gearbox were quickly made ready for yet another couple of laps use out on the circuit. I don't quite know how many engines and gearboxes were taken to those races back in the 'Golden Era' of F1, but it was certainly more than 8 for just one GP! Surely quick wear engines and gearboxes are just as artificial as quick wear tyres? Surely F1 should adopt the attitude that is seen in sports car racing, where just one engine is expected to last for 24 hours? I'm not sure how much F1 drivers would then complain about having to drive the car at 80% of maximum, but complain they would.

Originally Posted by wnut

There should be a choice between driving a car absolutely precisely on a soft tyre and ragging it slightly on a harder tyre!

How would you know, previous to the race, which tyres would do what? I suppose that you might expect Pirelli to take all of its compounds of tyre to the race, but how would you know if you were inadvertently giving preference to a team/driver by choosing the tyres that do what you want them to do with just one particular cars handling characteristics in mind? Not all teams/drivers would be happy with your choice of compounds or tyre construction, and this has happened very recently in F1, has it not?

[Paradise City]

It should be more exciting initially - how long they can sustain such excitement is unknown. I think '14 should be a good year, IMO, although I expect Vettel's Neweymobile to come up trumps in the end.

F1, as in the sport itself, is one big investment fund and the priority with investors is to maximise their return, so given that - the irreversible path the sport is now on is to pander to the masses and basically to catch as many fish as the fishing net can draw in. So expect more ridiculous gimmicks to pull in the masses in the future. We, on ten-tenths, will not have a chair in the boardroom when these gimmicks are sketched out on the boardroom flip chart, that's one thing we be sure of.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

We, on ten-tenths, will not have a chair in the boardroom when these gimmicks hit the boardroom flip chart, that's one thing we be sure of.

Surely you've filled in one of those FIA/FOTA surveys that have recently been doing the rounds?

Are the current semi-automatic gearboxes not "gimmicks"? Once thought to be the cutting edge of F1 car technology, even though they never really caught on in road cars (anyone who has ever driven a BMW fitted with an SMG will know why) and now thought of as just something that makes the drivers job way too easy, particularly when they were once full-on automatic gearboxes. Bloody gimmicks!

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Surely you've filled in one of those FIA/FOTA surveys that have recently been doing the rounds?

Are the current semi-automatic gearboxes not "gimmicks"? Once thought to be the cutting edge of F1 car technology, even though they never really caught on in road cars (anyone who has ever driven a BMW fitted with an SMG will know why) and now thought of as just something that makes the drivers job way too easy, particularly when they were once full-on automatic gearboxes. Bloody gimmicks!

Just as part of sport carries with it, the possibility of domination, part of real innovation is that you sometimes go up blind alleys but innovation does have to be restrained to prevent a spending race and one has to stress driver involvement in racing as a balance against technological support. Technology shouldn't hijack the cars from the drivers. In the above post I'm alluding to DRS, effortless magic carpet overtaking, I'd consent to it as a stop-gap but they aren't going to get rid of it and that kind of stuff is the path we're going down as an antidote to drivers dominating.

They aren't interested in us, I don't care how many surveys they put out and I'm sure they where put out with the highest of motives but when all is said and done, these decisions are made in the boardroom and when the owners are an investment company they have three priorities - that's profit, profit and more profit and that survey is stashed away in a warehouse somewhere along with Ark of the Covenant, never to be seen again. Authentic sport is not a priority to them and if turning the sport into a circus, gets that cash in, that's the path they'll embark upon.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Casper

I ask the question, can someone prove that a cap will improve things? all that anyone can come up with is some airy fairy assumptions and no facts.

I think most people who talk about a cap think if it as in conjunction with increased technical freedom, and the increased technical freedom is what would produce the difference. The Garageiste era showed scrappy low-budget teams could give Ferrari a run for their money, and that was without a cap and Ferrari spending tons more than the Garageistes. Limit the budgets to a level most of the field can raise, with increased technical freedom, and some of that would come back.

[Marbot]

I actually think the reason why the FIA have stated that gear ratio choice is to be fixed for 2014 (with just one change allowed) is that, hopefully, it will mean that some teams will go for a vastly different choice of ratio than some other teams will. Those 8 fixed ratios have to deal with Monza and Monaco, so there should be quite a variety of 'solutions' to that problem. They also have to bear in mind that they have only 100 kgs of fuel, so ratio choice is very critical. And who knows! maybe there will be a re-think about the merits of DRS.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Limit the budgets to a level most of the field can raise, with increased technical freedom, and some of that would come back.

Ironically, that is exactly the thinking that Ferrari and Toyota were so against, back in 09.

A golden opportunity missed because big money, personalities and politics became more important than the sport.

[JacobP]

The 2014 will be exciting. Vettel will have a chance of matching Schumacher's record of winning five consecutive championships. Who could have thought that something like this could happen so soon?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by JacobP

The 2014 will be exciting. Vettel will have a chance of matching Schumacher's record of winning five consecutive championships. Who could have thought that something like this could happen so soon?

Yep, that's just the exciting thought I need.