So most of us don't need Hans devices!

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Paul - I'm always very dubious of straw polls. Of the 7 in favour of a mandatory length pitstop I would want to know how many have long / large / inflexible bodies, and how many have cars with unusually small door apertures. These to me are self-inflicted problems. Nobody makes us race in pitstop races after all.
I like pitstop races and see the driver change as part of the race and indeed as something where I can gain an advantage. I think this is why CSCC have them, to add an extra competitive angle to racing. I have in the past practised the full exit/entry process at home, on my own, until I feel I'm down to a time I'm happy with. I have also amused myself hugely watching the antics of some driver changes where it's been seemingly obvious that they've never done it before, and apparently never put any thought into how to go about it efficiently, but I remain baffled as to why not!

Agreed David, re the reliability of a straw poll - and I alluded to as much in a previous post. But I also made the point that it's enough to make you think that maybe the majority aren't in favour, and I stand by that. Of course, we're never going to please all of the people, all of the time, and if you're happy the way things are, then that's fine... for you. But apparently not for everyone. All I would ask is that such decisions are taken democratically by the club.

I do think it's a bit harsh of you though to suggest that anyone who can't do a quick pitstop only has themselves to blame! We do this as a hobby, and we all come in different fitness levels, shapes and sizes, as do our cars. You may well be a pensioner, but we've met, so I know you're a pretty fit pensioner - sadly not everyone is so lucky. We're not pro-drivers, so some won't have the time, or the ability in some cases, to engage in a fitness regime or to be finding the time to practice pitstop techniques until they have it down to a fine art. It's just a fact of life: as amatuer racers, we all have different lives to lead away from our hobby, but I'm not convinced this is a good reason to disadvantage some over others because they're not as flexible/agile/fit. Club racing should be about what happens out on track - pitstops (at this level) are purely to allow those two-driver teams to change drivers, nothing else in my opinion. As far as I'm aware, there aren't any (non-endurance) club races that have pitstops if driver changes aren't allowed, presumably because it would just be totally artificial, so why allow the pitstops in a driver-change race to artificially influence the outcome of the race?

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by Paul D

Agreed David, re the reliability of a straw poll - and I alluded to as much in a previous post. But I also made the point that it's enough to make you think that maybe the majority aren't in favour, and I stand by that. Of course, we're never going to please all of the people, all of the time, and if you're happy the way things are, then that's fine... for you. But apparently not for everyone. All I would ask is that such decisions are taken democratically by the club.

I do think it's a bit harsh of you though to suggest that anyone who can't do a quick pitstop only has themselves to blame! We do this as a hobby, and we all come in different fitness levels, shapes and sizes, as do our cars. You may well be a pensioner, but we've met, so I know you're a pretty fit pensioner - sadly not everyone is so lucky. We're not pro-drivers, so some won't have the time, or the ability in some cases, to engage in a fitness regime or to be finding the time to practice pitstop techniques until they have it down to a fine art. It's just a fact of life: as amatuer racers, we all have different lives to lead away from our hobby, but I'm not convinced this is a good reason to disadvantage some over others because they're not as flexible/agile/fit. Club racing should be about what happens out on track - pitstops (at this level) are purely to allow those two-driver teams to change drivers, nothing else in my opinion. As far as I'm aware, there aren't any (non-endurance) club races that have pitstops if driver changes aren't allowed, presumably because it would just be totally artificial, so why allow the pitstops in a driver-change race to artificially influence the outcome of the race?

I would just again like to state that I am just big boned



You can see though that my car isn't so large. Again..Not sure where the problem lies if drivers such as me are prepared to gift the fitter pensioners 30 seconds per race

Neil.

[MGDavid]

Apologies Paul I wasn't very clear; what I meant was, those that are disadvantaged by the pitstop (whether by themselves or their car) go into it with the foreknowledge that this is the case. They still choose to do it, voluntarily and for fun, when they could enter a different race, or use a different car. It seems to me unjustified for them then to suggest the rules be changed to suit them.
I might draw on the analogy of someone who moves to a house next to a circuit, then complains about the noise and wants it stopped. I think we all know where we stand on that one.
A democratic poll could be interesting - if 'historics' means old cars and old drivers (!) it might be a majority for a fixed time, but within CSCC I think there's a younger average age and the 'problem' might not be perceived by so many. Which could be the reason the club's leaders and officials are happy with the status quo?
Good discussion though - gets us in training for the long layoff once the Birkett and the RoR are out of the way, and we have nowt else to do for 4 months

[Moosehead]

OK, I'll join in..............

I like the fast as you can pitstop. I like the competitive element.

I can't afford the latest performance upgrades so I'm slowly falling down the field, however, it doesn't cost me any £££ to practice and perfect (not got there yet!) the pitstop so I can sometimes claw back a few seconds there.

Regarding going out after a pitstop with belts undone etc..........In my marshalling days I saw plenty of people try to start a race with belts undone and that was after sitting for 15 minutes in the assembly area with absolutely no time pressures, hell, I even stopped one guy as he didn't even have belts in his car (yes, he'd got through scrutineering like that, he'd left the belts at home after refitting the seat the night before apparently)

I'm not keen on the timed pit stop idea - might as well just add the minute or whatever to the running time and stay out on track - at least the brakes and engine wouldn't have to cope with the heat soak then.

[midgetman]

One other important point about the bulletin issued by the MSA is the fact that you are now able to fit your own harness bars to ROPS without them needing to be homologated:

(K) 1.2.2. ...Any modification
to a homologated ROPS (other than fitment of door bars and
harness bars) is prohibited.


Hopefully it will be subject to careful scrutiny for full weld penetration all the way round the tube etc, but it is on the surface a dose of common sense. One of the (many) reasons that weighed on my mind in the sale of my MG was that I couldn't get harnesses to work in the correct manner due to my height.

(Sign of age I suppose, when I started all I worried about was fitting and complying with the rules, no thought to them working properly!)

Meantime I think I've cracked the cheap option to HANS devices...

[Moosehead]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Meantime I think I've cracked the cheap option to HANS devices...

I was thinking 2 ratchet straps but your version is less restrictive. Please get it FIA'd.

[midgetman]

The ratchet straps are the deluxe version. 3 times the price. I'm working on the Hybrid version, need to find some bungees long enough to get to my trouser belt.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Meantime I think I've cracked the cheap option to HANS devices...

Excellent alternative!

[Paul D]

I can see a flaw in the design there Max: I don't reckon the Sellotape is homologated!

Can I suggest an 'evolution' version, whereby the bungy (homologated type, obviously) wraps around the back of the seat and the hooks are inserted into the corners of the wearer's mouth? As well as creating an effective FHR, this will have the added bonus of ensuring that we all have big smiles on our faces as we crash!

[zefarelly]

I like a 'Quick as you can' in-out pit stop, we used to practice and it can make a difference, all part of the competition (look at F1)

Sitting there for a minute doing sod all is a waste of time and money for every one.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I like a 'Quick as you can' in-out pit stop, we used to practice and it can make a difference, all part of the competition (look at F1)

Sitting there for a minute doing sod all is a waste of time and money for every one.

Don't beat about the bush Joe....

[gt917]

[QUOTE=Paul D;3582850]

Can I suggest an 'evolution' version, whereby the bungy (homologated type, obviously) wraps around the back of the seat and the hooks are inserted into the corners of the wearer's mouth? As well as creating an effective FHR, this will have the added bonus of ensuring that we all have big smiles on our faces as we crash!




Brilliant Paul

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Don't beat about the bush Joe....

There are hundreds doing that already

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Apologies Paul I wasn't very clear; what I meant was, those that are disadvantaged by the pitstop (whether by themselves or their car) go into it with the foreknowledge that this is the case. They still choose to do it, voluntarily and for fun, when they could enter a different race, or use a different car. It seems to me unjustified for them then to suggest the rules be changed to suit them.
I might draw on the analogy of someone who moves to a house next to a circuit, then complains about the noise and wants it stopped. I think we all know where we stand on that one.

A little late to this, but from my point of view we have returned to racing with CSCC in Future Classics after a 5-year gap - having done 3 seasons previously with them, and don't really want to "enter a different race" - nor are we necessarily suggesting that the rules be changed to suit us....but the rules are being changed by the introduction of the mandatory FHR, and it seems fair at this point to revisit the pitstop rules.....

We (usually) operate as a two-driver team, so have to change anyway, but I am concerned that getting in via a relatively restricted doorway - doorbar and high-sided winged seat are both obstructions - and then getting securely strapped in whilst wearing a FHR (and adjusting the belts for my possibly more ample frame, compared to my race-partner) is going to be more difficult than hitherto. I can fully understand the argument for single drivers to be spared the disruption with its attendent risk of belts being incorrectly adjusted. Although we do practice our changes and the best routine for doing this, we probably don't threaten the 1 minute barrier very often as it is, so wouldn't really expect any change to impact upon us very much.

On a slightly different tack - PaulD outlined the situation we had at Oulton - new Schroth belts, bought as old belts out of date, and FHR compatible in preparation for next year.....but crucially with 2" shoulder straps. So we failed scrutineering as we hadn't got FHR (or FHR compatible helmets). Discussion with the scrutineers elicited the information that they were unsuitable because the 2" belts would put too much pressure on the shoulders - worn with a FHR the pressure would be spread. Sort-of see this....so postulated to Chief Scrutineer (after discussion with one of the scruts) that if we borrowed and used a FHR from a competitor from another race we should be OK - because the load from the 2" straps would be suitably spread? No deal - apparently suddenly the load spreading wasn't the issue - an FHR on its own without being strapped to the helmet wasn't permissible be cause it was an "all-or-nothing" system......... Logical? I didn't think so, but at my age I know better than to argue with a Scrutineer....so off we went, and with the aid of the resourceful PaulD and the generosity of Jaguar driver Simon Blunt who lent us the set of belts from his Jag's passenger seat, we managed to fit a set of belts that would pass scrutineering.........but which couldn't readily have the lap-straps adjusted - leading to Steve's decision not to race for safety reasons.

Steve had raced with CSCC at Mallory a few weeks earlier with the Schroth belts and no FHR, of course. Its a surprise he's alive, really, to hear some comments on here.......but we've survived 40+years of rallying to International level in Imps, Alfas, and a Lada, and in Steve's case around 10 years racing in a Clan, Porsche 944 and now the Alfa. Have we had accidents? - yes, several big ones, particularly in rallying, including one 70+mph impact with a tree-stump which we uprooted before ending up upside down on the other side of it in a somewhat mis-shapen Imp - the petrol tank punched a hole in the bulkhead but stayed intact......

I don't say FHRs are pointless - nor do I subscribe to the view that you are risking instant death not using one.

[midgetman]

Not surprised about the FHR/helmet situation TBH because they come as a package.

I agree with your last couple of paragraphs.

[Geraint Owen]

My 2p worth

Two matched cars are having a great dice for 30 minutes. In the changeover one is 10 seconds quicker for whatever reason

Remaining 30 minutes for both driver 2's is pounding round 10 seconds separated from a great dice. Not much good for spectators, and as a driver it is rubbish. I would rather be behind at the end of 30 minutes hard racing than be one place up after 30 minutes on my own.

There is also the issue of mechanic numbers. Most of our two driver racing is done with just me and a mate and a car. I come in, get out,he gets in and I do the belts with my helmet on. Big disadvantage compared to the teams with a number of mechanics. Oddly we still manage to be quicker than many. Sub 20 seconds stationary is what we aim for

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Geraint Owen

My 2p worth

Two matched cars are having a great dice for 30 minutes. In the changeover one is 10 seconds quicker for whatever reason

Remaining 30 minutes for both driver 2's is pounding round 10 seconds separated from a great dice. Not much good for spectators, and as a driver it is rubbish. I would rather be behind at the end of 30 minutes hard racing than be one place up after 30 minutes on my own.

There is also the issue of mechanic numbers. Most of our two driver racing is done with just me and a mate and a car. I come in, get out,he gets in and I do the belts with my helmet on. Big disadvantage compared to the teams with a number of mechanics. Oddly we still manage to be quicker than many. Sub 20 seconds stationary is what we aim for

Alternatively, two cars pounding round about 10 secs apart but one cant really catch the other. In the pit stop, the leader of the two is about 10 secs slower than the other and they come out together and have a great dice to the finish.

Another scenario, car 1 has a faster driver than car 2 and gets a lead. At the pit stop a slower driver gets in to car 1 and a faster driver in to car 2. Car 1 has a 20 sec lead at the pit stop but gets chased down and car 2 overtakes to "win".

Several ways of looking at this. And the two driver/ longer format, pit stop race has proven to be very popular over the last 10 years despite the perceived issues.

And as for spectators, when they start paying me to race, I will worry about the show I put on for them. (Note I wouldnt pay me to watch me race, just like I wouldnt pay to watch me play golf!)

[FastDB2s]

I have just been reading through this thread, a couple of points

1) When we all have HANS devices, then the spec will change & we will all have to have new ones - this is a foregone conclusion, its happened so many times before with helmets 1st, then with racesuits when they came in, then with seatbelts & seats, not to mention rollcages, fire extinguisher systems et al.

2) My only visit to the CoC was in the Fiscar 2 driver race Castle Combe 2012 when I dropped my belts undone on the move, in an open car in the pit lane.
This is part of the race & part of the race track until you are stationary apparently, I had been doing this for many years but in closed cars so could not be seen.
This has been done by professionals for many years as I have seen & used pieces of elastic to pull the belts out of the way.
I don't wan't another visit to the CoC anywhere so my belts are always done up now, on the way in down the pit lane or on the way out down the pit lane.

3) in the Woodcote Trophy or Fiscar races you dont need belts for 50s cars, when I dont drive I prepare & look after other other peoples cars, our main opposition can change drivers in 12 seconds, we have to sit there as a single driver for 30secs, 45secs or 1minute, how is this fair, (then there are cheats who short change the stops but we won't go there now) on a 30 second stop Andy is quite a lot quicker than the owner but equal to the preparer so if we get it all right we can just finish behind our main opposition.

4) HANS devices use only 2" belts, surely thats a retrograde step seeing as most of us use 3" 'normal' belts as part of our normal upgrade in safety when renewing belts.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by FastDB2s

4) HANS devices use only 2" belts, surely thats a retrograde step seeing as most of us use 3" 'normal' belts as part of our normal upgrade in safety when renewing belts.

Not true.

Hans devices can use 3 inch belts quite happily, and the majority of people that I have seen that use a hans device still use 3 inch belts, I do with no problem.

2 inch "waisted" shoulder belts can be used with a hans device (but are not compulsory) only because the load is spread over the whole of the hans "yoke". So, no need to change belts to "2 inch type" if your existing belts are in date. And even if you do need to change your belts, there is no need to go to the 2 inch type. I wont.

[Tim Falce]

I have only skim read a lot of this so apologies if I've missed anything. Unless I was dreaming it I did read that window nets were due to come in pretty soon, attached at one side with seat belt type buckles, how's this going to affect driver changes or doing a the CSCC Hokey Cokey when you do a pit stop race?

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

I have only skim read a lot of this so apologies if I've missed anything. Unless I was dreaming it I did read that window nets were due to come in pretty soon, attached at one side with seat belt type buckles, how's this going to affect driver changes or doing a the CSCC Hokey Cokey when you do a pit stop race?

I have not seen anything about window nets. I think it was pure speculation by some on the lines of the, "what may happen next"..."this is the then end of the wedge" etc

What exactly is the "CSCC hokey cokey" and why is it any different to any other clubs pit stop where one driver gets out and another gets in? CSCC is just one club (of several) that does not have a fixed time pit stop). Confused?

[FastDB2s]

A good friend of mine, now passed away, was once asked by a start line marshall
'can you close your window please'
the DB4 hadn't got a drivers window so Ian told the guy this, the reply was
'you can't start then'
Ian's reply was
'I am on pole (not unusual), my window is wound up, I stall the car, what do I do'
'put your hand up & out of the window'
'I can't, its shut'
they let him start, thats the problem with closed windows & nets.

[Paul D]

Tim - without going back through the whole thread, I think it was Max who commented on the window nets becoming compulsory. As Max is in the racewear business, I guess he hears about such matters before some of us might? Can you clarify this point Max?

It does appear, however, that we have two definite schools of thought on the timed pitstop issue - by which, I mean that most people seem to have a strong opinion one way or the other - we don't seem to have many sitting on the fence with comments along the lines of "Oh, I don't mind which way the pitstops are done."

So, with such strong feeling out there, perhaps it is time the relevant clubs put it to a vote of the drivers? I do believe that the only fair way to resolve this is with a democratic vote - I for one, would then shut up about it and abide by whatever was voted for, even if it didn't go my way. Of course, the vote would need to be transparent and, preferably anonymous, so that we could all vote for what we really want without the risk of being vilified by those of a different opinion.

However, I'd just like to add that FastDB2s and Geraint Owen both make some valid points too. This jumping in & out of cars in the fastest possible time is only going to get ever more farcical with the ever increasing equipment we're expected to use - HANS next year (for many) and possibly the nets thing soon after that. It's just going to introduce even more opportunities for it to all go wrong when trying to operate all these devices in a hurry - sooner or later, someone is going to slip through the net (pun intended!) and make it back out after a pitstop with one of these devices not properly secured/attached/fastened, and they're gonna crash and either die or get seriously injured, and all of a sudden everyone will be asking "how could this happen?"

Geraint mentions something I brought up some time ago when last discussing this topic - which is that of a bias towards the more 'professional' outfits when it comes to the pitstops. Invariably, when I do a pitstop, I have one helper - usually, but not always it's my better half. Sometimes it may be someone different who hasn't helped before. Remember, we do this as a hobby, and yet there are some drivers who turn up at every event with three or four helpers, the same guys every time, and often it's guys who actually do it for a living. They've practiced their pitstop technique over & over, with a guy in either side of the car doing the belts/HANS, maybe a third guy making sure another car doesn't block their required exit route, and they've got it down to 15 seconds stationary! Now I'm sorry, but there's no way a lone driver with his missus helping him is ever going to compete with that! So, people who often already have an advantage out on track with their pro-built & prepped cars are being gifted a further advantage in the pitstops compared to the rest of us. Go figure...

[Mike Bell]

Window nets were briefly discussed in tea break after a post from Max on the subject. Think their compulsory use is 'under consideration' by MSA, but may be wrong on that.....

[Geraint Owen]

the 2"/3" debate is interesting. I was an early buyer of the Simpson Hybrid FHR. A far superior design IMHO. Anyway, I had a long chat with the Scroth people about suitable belts. There is little protrusion of the Simpson unit over the shoulder so there is little if any load spread from the FHR itself.

They were clear in stating that either 2" or 3" could be used, but that 2" was better as it routed around the FHR more easily. When I questioned the load spreading they were very clear in stating that there was little if any benefit in a 3" shoulder strap when not using a FHR, and the move to 3" shoulder belts was a bit of a con.

IIRC they also said that their data indicated far more protection from 2" lap belts than 3". The wider lap belts being less likely to get to the correct point for the load path to the "hard point" of the human body