Montoya blows it again - Page 4

freud · 15 Sep 2002, 21:24 (Ref:380984)

OMG, whenever JPM makes a mistake, the knives are out...

Anyway, R summed it up above and I dont want to lengthen the 'bait' discussion.

My ten cents worth says that

- The first 'off' (with broken barge board) was JPM's mistake... second 'off' occured after the push rod got broke. SO technically the second 'off' was due to the suspension failure & not JPM's mistake
- It was JPM's fault once again trying to get the maximum out of a suspension that is just not capable of delivering what he expects out of it. As I said after Hungary, JPM needs to understand his equipment and have the intuition to realize its potential. FW and PH have seen Mansell and I think he needs a word or two from them will do JPM a world of good.
- Finally, lets not get too excited by Ralf's 'overtaking manouvere'.. technically it WASNT an overtaking manouvere. It was a foul. And Ralf was ordered by Stewards to move over and let JPM through... that was moments before his engine went off.

garcon · 15 Sep 2002, 23:17 (Ref:381085)

On TimD's question a few posts ago, and avoiding the 'bait' question (!) ...

Schumacher did indeed put a rear wheel in the gravel while trying to make his way round a Jordan. He went a bit wide, wider than he intended, but nothing too serious.

Ok, as the initiator of the thread, I can't shirk the 'bait' question! I agree there's a fine line between flame bait and trying to generate debate. But I'm glad R decided not to pull it, because I think the latter was achieved. My apologies to any offended - that wasn't my intention.

Cheers,
Garcon

eatapc · 15 Sep 2002, 23:37 (Ref:381095)

Quote:

Originally posted by garcon
My apologies to any offended - that wasn't my intention.

Thanks for clarifying that. Hope there are no hard feelings.

As to your original assertion that JPM is "hopeless" and "brainless" and will never win another GP, I'll bet you a hundred bucks (or pounds) that he wins another GP by the end of next year.

As far as today's race, I'll try to be brief:
--His car "almost stalled" off the line. As his car has launch control, I call that bad luck, not driver error.
--He did well to block MS and hold his position into turn one, where Ralf cut the chicane (and was asked to give up his position by the stewards).
--The Williams cars haven't been fast in race trim for months, and he battled a difficult car well.
--The kerbs seemed to be tough on suspensions at Monza this year, and his Williams did not handle them well at all. Perhaps he would have been wise to baby the car and settle for 4th or 5th. But then he wouldn't be the great driver he is.

Valve Bounce · 15 Sep 2002, 23:48 (Ref:381103)

Well, congrats everyone - I went down the whole of page 1 and the thread had not degenerated into a SchM bash.
Sometimes the posters here are very restrained.

Valve

Valve Bounce · 15 Sep 2002, 23:52 (Ref:381105)

Admit it Garcon, you are a closet JPM fan and are just trying to drum up praise for JPM.

I thought he did very well, and tried valiantly to keep the Ferraris from going into cruise control.

Valve

garcon · 15 Sep 2002, 23:55 (Ref:381106)

Quote:

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
Admit it Garcon, you are a closet JPM fan and are just trying to drum up praise for JPM.
I thought he did very well, and tried valiantly to keep the Ferraris from going into cruise control.

Valve

Oh Godammit!! Rumbled!!!

senna12 · 16 Sep 2002, 00:48 (Ref:381143)

I also applaud JP for trying as hard as possible to keep the Ferrari's behind for as long as he could, as it was the only way to make their fuel strategy work. Unfortunately, any error, no matter how small, can cost you. Certainly, losing the barge board, or whatever it was, didn't cost him the podium. If banging the kerbs in normal fashion caused the suspemsion failure, then he can't be blamed for that, either.
Anyway, I don't believe Juan is hopeless. I think that is an inaccurate statement.

Mania · 16 Sep 2002, 00:51 (Ref:381147)

It's not surprising that Juan's Williams suspension finally gave way. Juan thumped it over the speed ramps in Turn 1 at the start, he bumped it across the gravel and the kerb of Turn 2 and finally ran it along the edge of the kerb like a skateboarder looking for a 'grind' on lap 32.
He didn't seem that bothered that his race was over when he should have been up on the podium. I can't imagine Ayrton Senna taking it so lightly.

Interesting to see FH write this - usually he kisses up to Pablo !

f1manoz · 16 Sep 2002, 00:52 (Ref:381148)

JPM was trying hard again but those Ferrari's are just unbeatable. Rubens drove like a man possessed all race, while TGF did what was required. The Williams is just inferior in every department.

Perhaps JPM tries a tad too hard sometimes, but considering the inferiority of the Williams chassis, JPM has to try anything and everything to keep up with the Ferrari's. At least he's in there, having a go instead of sitting back and doing nothing.

To say that JPm is hopeless (referring to very first post) is just ludicrous. JPM is an exciting driver, extremely fast, but is prone to the odd mistake. Sorry if he's not perfect like some other driver!

z2252314 · 16 Sep 2002, 02:02 (Ref:381173)

I dont believe Ferrari's dominance can be used to excuse JPM's continuous mistakes. A great driver is able to fight valiantly, but able to stop short a fraction before exceeding the limit. I gave Juan a bit of latitude in his first year, but he seems to have failed to iron out his 'rookie' mistakes. The point of defending your position is to maintain it. At worst, you can lose the position, but you should never destroy the car in the process. Anyway, it's all just part of the learning process for JPM. If he does want to battle MS for 17 races and the championship, he will need to start eliminating these silly mistakes.

P.S in 97 and 98, Michael had an awfully inferior car. Yet you didnt see him trash his race as soon as the Mac's or Wil's where in front. A race is 60+ laps, and you have to be out there to take advantage of any opportunities.

Jukebox · 16 Sep 2002, 02:22 (Ref:381178)

When Ralf was infront....Montoya helped him to get a better lead by holding Rubens behind him.

Williams boosted the rev limiter on Ralf's car, but obviously the BMW engine can't hang on to that sort of punishment and paid the price after a few laps.

Given me a new perspective on Montoya...

Mania · 16 Sep 2002, 02:55 (Ref:381192)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox
When Ralf was infront....Montoya helped him to get a better lead by holding Rubens behind him.

Oh please..give me a break!

Jukebox · 16 Sep 2002, 03:15 (Ref:381196)

Quote:

Originally posted by Mania
Oh please..give me a break!

This is the first time i have defended Montoya you know..so give me a break

At least it seemed that way from my point of view

Jukebox · 16 Sep 2002, 03:52 (Ref:381209)

Quote:

Originally posted by Inigo Montoya
Hate to add to the bash thread, as I'm now a Montoya fan too, but...
I have to mention the chop. TGF was crucified by many in this forum, but somehow it just continues to be fine when Juan does it.

ah..thank you for reminding me of the dangerous chop Montoya did on Michael after the start. Well...at least Michael chopped Montoya at a considerable distance in M'sia.

Jukebox · 16 Sep 2002, 03:55 (Ref:381210)

Quote:

Originally posted by mr v

As a Montoya fan, i have to say that imo, it's not fine if he does it, and i was one of the posters who critized TGF for doing it. I don't want to sound like i'm defending JPM for doing it, because i'm not, but i do blame the FIA for not stamping it out earlier. By allowing Michael to get away with it, they have made a rod for their own backs, and have to allow it when others do it.

Don't mean i like it anymore though when Juan does it.

Anyone can chop if they wanted...even the midfields do it. It's in the rule crystal clear...one swerve form a side to the other is allowed. So don't blame on Michael and the FIA

Jukebox · 16 Sep 2002, 04:06 (Ref:381211)

Quote:

Originally posted by mr v
No he didn't lose it, he clipped the curbs, just as everyother car was doing, but then his suspension broke!

Blame the hard headed Williams car designer for maintaining the centrally mounted suspension design.

I wouldn't be suprised if the Williams drivers would damaged their car running though chicanes

drexel · 16 Sep 2002, 05:44 (Ref:381236)

I think i read someone say that Juan was once again frustrated that he didn't have the equipment to fight Ferrari this weekend.
The fact is he did have the car to win this race only he wouldn't have won anyway since his team mate had quicker race pace.

He has only himself to blame this weekend.
For those that say Ralf cheated to get past him..look at this...
http://w1.877.telia.com/~u87727362/atlasf1/5.jpg
this tells me Juan gave Ralf no room anyway.

Also he should have known Rubens was on a 2 stopper meaning he should not have lost control after Rubens passed him as there was nothing that could be done. This lead to running off track, which broke his car, which let Michael pass him.

Before that, he had the pace to match Schumacher on the same strat. And when you look at how close Michael was to passing Rubens at the 2nd pitsop....then a Race win was definately there for the taking.

O wins...7 poles (but outqualified 8-7 by Ralf and out-raced more often than not) What does it all mean?
Personally i think he had a better season in 01 than this year.

Red · 16 Sep 2002, 05:54 (Ref:381241)

Yes, good point Drexel. Actually I found at least curious the official FIA race-report that said: "as they go into the first corner the two Williams-BMW are side-by-side. Montoya goes very wide to give Ralf space to avoid any possibility of contact"

These kind of actions avoided by Ferrari when they don't let them race. Both Willies boys missed the chicane and could damage the cars a bit even though they avoided the accident. Just look what did they have to ride:

Sato san · 16 Sep 2002, 06:17 (Ref:381251)

For all the negative points about Juan's race yesterday , he is still exactly what F1 needs , he is a charger , and he can pull off some great moves also .

As for Ralf and overtaking , i wouldnt have called that a over taking move yesterday that he done , it was more of a fumble between himself and Montoya . Although it was poor luck with his engine , as we never got to see who had the quicker pace in race trim between the 2 williams drivers

**Peter Mallett** · 16 Sep 2002, 06:48 (Ref:381262)

Quote:

Originally posted by Sato san
For all the negative points about Juan's race yesterday , he is still exactly what F1 needs , he is a charger , and he can pull off some great moves also .

Agreed. But he'll be no good until he learns to control himself.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sato san
As for Ralf and overtaking , i wouldnt have called that a over taking move yesterday that he done , it was more of a fumble between himself and Montoya . Although it was poor luck with his engine , as we never got to see who had the quicker pace in race trim between the 2 williams drivers

Not sure, but I recall the "Ralf can't overtake catawalling" from Hungary. Outside of his brother etc. He does it here and all of a sudden its cheating not overtaking. What is it with people who can't actually see the evidence put in front of them?

The result was he ran wide but JPM could have given way and let him pass. However Ralf was ahead after starting third so I guess that means he didn't overtake anybody. Hey ho.

Valve Bounce · 16 Sep 2002, 07:23 (Ref:381278)

That's an interestin photo Red, makes me wonder whether JPM damaged the underside of his car then.

Valve

Sato san · 16 Sep 2002, 07:34 (Ref:381287)

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mallett

Agreed. But he'll be no good until he learns to control himself.
)

yes , thats a good point , which i think is starting to show . But i think Williams will make him learn more control when he is under pressure from a faster car behind him .

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mallett

Not sure, but I recall the "Ralf can't overtake catawalling" from Hungary. Outside of his brother etc. He does it here and all of a sudden its cheating not overtaking.

not cheating , of course not !, i just meant it was a bit of a fumble thats all..of course he gained the places , but it wasnt what i would call a pure overtaking move....it was all a bit of a mess really ......i wasnt knocking him for it , i was just saying that it wasnt really much of a move thats all .

Red · 16 Sep 2002, 07:39 (Ref:381291)

Well, I think it was a good move. And had Montoya not ... ahem... "give Ralf space to avoid any possibility of contact" I do believe that Ralf would've get past him, on the outside, without cutting the chicane. Pretty good stuff I'd say, even though he might had a lighter fuel load.

Jukebox · 16 Sep 2002, 08:10 (Ref:381316)

Quote:

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
That's an interestin photo Red, makes me wonder whether JPM damaged the underside of his car then.

Valve

Just imagine what would happen with the look of the suspension setup they have

the pic is small but to view in large go here..http://www.itv-f1.com/features/photos/story/8806

Mr V · 16 Sep 2002, 08:31 (Ref:381325)

Quote:

Originally posted by drexel

O wins...7 poles (but outqualified 8-7 by Ralf and out-raced more often than not) What does it all mean?

It means your wrong, it's actually 8-7 in Juans favour, aswell as his 7 poles, Juan also out-qualified Rafe at Maylasia.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Rogers blows it ...................	retro	Australasian Touring Cars.	43	17 Jun 2004 13:25
Carnegie blows championship race wide open!	Peter S	Rallying & Rallycross	30	30 Jul 2003 17:06
Marc Hynes blows his chance?	Super Tourer	Formula One	5	23 Dec 2000 11:19