Marshals Grading is a farce !

[Stuart Hill]

thank you sbf, "proffessional hobby" sums it up. No, we don't get paid: Yes; it is voluntary: therefore a hobby, but....
like you said, we take it very seriously as it can very easily become so!!!!

From my experience, Speed events do recognise the committments we make and offer us all they can. The problem seems to be with the "circuits and their friends" !!!!!! The bigger events etc!!

Seems to me, the bigger the event, the less you get!!!!

(and I'm not looking for freebies!!!!!)

Just a little respect for what I am offering

[serverbrainfailure]

agreed - now the question - why is it that way around?
the more money involved - the less you care about the marshalls team
It costs nothing to show a little respect, and doesn't cost much to show appreciation - smaller events / venues are more grateful to marshals because they tend to be a small number of dedicated folks whose absence can kill meetings (ask Cadwell)

The bigger events know that the offer of free entry is sufficient to bring in enough marshals - so they don't make any effort.

IT IS HIGH TIME THEY SAW DIFFERENTLY

Dwindling marshal numbers are too slow an argument for them to change their ways.

if a critical mass of marshals boycotted events where they are badly treated, those event organisers would gain the same appreciation of their marshalls that smaller venues/events have.

the trouble is - if it is done at the wrong time or in the wrong way, it could reflect badly on marshalls in general.

My suggestion is this - if all of us forego one big(&bad) meet in favour of a smaller club meet (which is usually more fun anyway) maybe the big guns would feel the pinch more....

..carefully submitted - expecting conflicting views...

[Woolley]

Yes, I agree with the professional hobby definiton. As with volunteer firemen, RNLI, Mountain Rescue, Cave rescue, we've got whatever it is that makes you want to be involved at a different level within our particular area of interest. A marshal is not, and never should be a spectator, even if we do it because motor racing is what makes us happy. I think the problem we have with lack of recognition is because most of the organisers think we're spectators on a freebie, and many drivers think we're getting paid and all our equipment for free.

'The AA, the fourth emergency service'. In their dreams...

[Baldy Man]

Yes, like that definition too - a professional hobby. The reason I do marshalling is for fun, and who says that fun cannot be serious ? Most of an average day for me is spent trying to enjoy the racing and company of other marshals, who at Oulton are a top bunch of folk (with thankfully very few exceptions). BUT when an incident happens fun goes out the window and the training kicks in.

What I would like to see though is especially for very new starters, more emphasis on the fun side, just the reasons why people enjoy marshalling, that is not to say they are not given the safety basics, just don't frighten them off byu talking about fatals etc - that can come later.

Another thing that got on my nerves at the last training day was some over heavy tactics about volunteering forms and the new starters were told that if they defaulted on 3 meetings then they would not be welcome anymore in the bmmc !!!! Sure you don't volunteer with the intention of going back on it, but from time to time something will come up on the night before and you have no choice.

I think some of the over serious types should get their heads from out of their backsides and talk to a few new people - above all appreciate that there are lots of perfectly good, safe and professional marshals out there who have a different outlook to them !!!!

Like the idea serverbrainfailure about doing some smaller meetings on big days ! Gonna try and do some local hill climbs next year.

[Kev Smith]

things can come up the night before but what cost a call
when people do not turn up it can be a problem.

I spend a long time sorting posts out for meetings to make sure everyone gets a turn with xobs and the so called bad posts. When 30% of the marshals do not turn up and you then have to start moving people around they are not happy and I was p***** off

so if you can not make it please call

[Stuart Hill]

Very true Kev, there's nothing like sitting at the sign-on table waiting for marshals to turn up with the clock nearing start time!! Been there, done that! It's not fun. In these days of mobiles and email, to me at least, there is absolutely no reason for not sending apologies unless something actually happens on the day itself and you do not have a contact number for the circuit or chief marshal.

Any of you that do not agree, just take a moment and put yourself in the other person's position. Thanks on behalf of all Chief Marshals.

[Guisbro Rod H]

Is this all talk or is there a serious suggestion to boycot a meeting. Everyone mutters about late Donningtons or is there another suggestion?

[Stuart Hill]

Guisbro, read the "Changes to Marshals Conditions" thread and then let us know your reply.

[Stuart Hill]

but if anyone would actually like a strike or protest next year, I'll gladly co-ordinate it!
None of the official clubs like me anyway so I don't care!! All I want is some appreciation for marshals and some decent conditions in which to do our VERY important (but voluntary) hobby.

[Guisbro Rod H]

Yes crazystu I have read "Changes to Marshals Conditions" started by Graham(bangers) whom I have the pleasure of knowing (or is that his girlfriend?!).

I am not invloved in BMMC because we were left out in the cold and formed North Eastern Marshalls Association (NEMA)because we were 150 miles from any other circuit. Primarily we were based at Croft.

I strongly suspect that many marshals are unaware of the hard work put in by many hard working inderviduals in BMMC, MSA working-parties, etc. Clearly Graham is trying to collate our views as safety professsionals (not spectators) and passing those views onto his committee.

We are good at whinging, but we are such a diverse bunch that are trained to work with any similarly trained indervidual when we are assigned to a Post. So it is a nightmare to collate views and a "walk-off/strike" of a high profile meeting for say an hour would never happen now because we do not share our feelings.

What about the MSA getting a regular mail shot to every circuit marshal where positive suggestions could be shared?
Am I in dreamland? The idea of the MSA helping marshals to organise their professional hobby in a manner to kick the MSA into the 21 century; I must be dreaming as it would be at their expence. Maybee I think its important so that is why I am being dragged into organising a register of RallyX marshals; see "RallyCross Marshalling" thread. Is that another splinter group??

Clearly talking should occur before a boycot, but the awareness of the discussion of a boycot may clarify certain organisers minds.

And yes I have completed the marshals' questionaire - if anyone reads this, go now and fill in questionaire.

[Stuart Hill]

thank you Guisbro. I appreciate your entries on the questionnaire.

But, this is exactly why I said what I did!!!!!

Do we want a strike or we rather see some action from the "powers-that-be" ???????

let's get some ideas together and form a plan. No sense *****ing about how we are treated unless we mean to take it further!!!!!!!!!

It's all very well *****ing here but, would anyone be prepared to "strike" or "walkout" at a certain meeting????

If not, then write to your local representative..........

BUT..........
If you like the idea of finally proving just how important our hobby is then...............!!!!!!!!

let's arrange something that will really get "their" attention!!!!

[blackx]

To respond to guisbro's idea of an MSA mailshot I have just one (I think it's just the one anyway!!) point to make.
Does this mailshot have to be aimed at just circuit marshals??
Speed event marshals are treated with disdane as well and are also subject to the same ludicrous timetables as the rest of the marshaling fraternity..
I am grade blackx for speed events and when I go to circuits to marshal many of the higher graded marshals look down their noses slightly because I am technically a "novice" but with the state of play at many circuits I am becoming less inclined to marshal and therefore have little or no chance of getting on the promotional ladder...

[Guisbro Rod H]

Yes speed event marshals are looked down upon.
Wolverhampton is a long way off but the Croft RallyCross SuperPrix must be very tempting for you.
You would be most welcome because many at Croft have odd habits - derived from their Speed background.
But how can the MSA help to overcome that prejudice without a newsletter or communication to explain the strengths of our varied disipline backgrounds?

[Cynic]

To respond to Blackx' comment:

I am grade blackx for speed events and when I go to circuits to marshal many of the higher graded marshals look down their noses slightly because I am technically a "novice"

If you are graded in a particular discipline does that automatically mean you are capable of dealing with other things? I'va marshalled at speed events and circuits, and while some skills are always going to be needed "across the board" if you are only used to having one vehicle in your sector at a time, does that prepare you to deal with potential multi-car incidents? Maybe the best solution would be to have a training scheme that requires trainees to collect signatures at all the different types of events that they might want to marshal at in the future?

[Stuart Hill]

That's funny Cynic; when I attend circuits with my black badge the locals tend to assume I know it all. I'ts normally up to me to reinforce the fact that I've only graded to red on circuits and expect to be treated as such.

That being said, I do think that Speed events are a good grounding for trainees as you tend to only get one car at a time. It's a much safer environment to learn the basics of dealing with an incident. But it's not for everyone. Don't let's forget that most people that start want to watch "racing" and must still be available to trainees.
Some of my best days on post have been with marshals from a different discipline. We can all learn from each other as we are all trained slightly differently.
Also, who knew when they started which form of motorsport would most attract them?

[Guisbro Rod H]

Originally posted by crazystu
Speed events are a good grounding for trainees as you tend to only get one car at a time.

RallyX is classified as a Speed event, including European & Inter-nation Events.
Now six Rally Supercars each with 500bhp+ can start six abreast for European events etc.
Last time the one that turned upside down and backwards and was considerate enough to flash his brake lights to warn the marshals of his imminent arrival in the Armco.

Normal British Rallycross has up to 10 cars from equally powered mini-cross cars to Supercars with 650+bhp.
This weekend is going to be fun at Croft with a full grids of all rallyX types.

The one at a time myth, is that why speed marshals are looked down upon?:confused:

[Stuart Hill]

My apologies Guisbro, it just goes show that you never stop learning!! I never realised that RallyX came under the same banner as Hillclimbs etc.

Lesson duly learnt, Thank-you. :-)

[Guisbro Rod H]

Crazystu, yes I have things to learn. What about Autocross?
Wish you were coming to Croft.

[Stuart Hill]

YOU WISH???????? How do you think I feel!!!!!!!!!!!

Got to do the "Family thing" this weekend, bl**dy nephew needs to get his priorities right!! Fancy getting engaged at this time of year!!! Could have waited till the season was over!! Words will be said !!!

[Stoowert]

Things happen one at atime on Hill Climbs do they? I was observing at Watertower on the Ramsey Hill last year, we had a Westfield nearly disapear down a 300ft hill, only a straw bale saved it. Then a spectator (don't yer just luv 'em?) walked into the red flag displayed on a road sign, broke the flag and badly bruised his chest. Not only that, but the novice marshal on my post nearly wet himself laughing!
Some of the best days marshalling have been on speed events! I would love to reccomend the Manx Classic as a "Must Do" but it was cancelled this year due to lack of interest! I'm still sulking!

[Woolley]

And the oppsoite happens too - at one hill climb the same car had accidents at three of the first four posts, and only stopped a few yard short of making the fifth! Course controp still haven't quite got it worked out - "Kennels safety; Ess Approach Emergency; Bottom Ess no, safety again now"

[Novice]

Originally posted by Stoowert
Things happen one at atime on Hill Climbs do they? I was observing at Watertower on the Ramsey Hill last year, we had a Westfield nearly disapear down a 300ft hill, only a straw bale saved it. Then a spectator (don't yer just luv 'em?) walked into the red flag displayed on a road sign, broke the flag and badly bruised his chest. Not only that, but the novice marshal on my post nearly wet himself laughing!

I resent that as I was not there. Mind you it sounded fun.

[Stoowert]

Oh yes! Mind you, can you imagine the radio message I had to make to Hill Control, AKA Peter Roberts! "You're never going to believe this but..."
He didn't - until the Boy, Felix arrived at pace.

[blackx]

To jump back to the reply from cynic;
Being a BlackX at speed events does not mean I am well suited to marshaling at all events but the same could be said for some of the circuit marshals that can be seen at speed events country wide some of who refuse to be lead by mear (or is it meer) speed event marshals.
Goodwood F of Speed is a good example;
My Observer for the duration was a circuit marshal of some stature and knowledge but seemed unable to grasp the basics of a Hillclimb;ie, just because the course car has returned down the hill doesn't mean you automatically withdraw your red flag(post above still had their flag out so I did not withdraw mine) and when I tried to explain that we knew not the reason for the red flag still being displayed I was told "I am an observer at circuits and when I say flag in I mean flag in".
This is the very attitude that stops me becoming more invloved at circuits.
When I do circuits I have never had any complaints and have even been put in charge of a post( ok it was Donnington and there was only me and a snatch man doing flags for me).
Can I just finally(honest) say that I am by no means saying that all roundy roundy marshals are like this as I know many and 99% of them are fine and dandy people with whom I enjoy my motor-sport.......

[Stoowert]

I couldn't have put it better myself! It may not be a bad idea that if you want a Black X, and the kudos that goes with it, then you must do at least 2 speed events and you have to take a course in man management! The attitude of the observer at the GFFoS was inexcusable and downright rude Just a simple "Red flag in please" would have been enough. You could then have told him why you had the flag out still. I know that is very easy to say, but anyone who knows me and my attitude to marshals and marshalling will have seen I run my post by concensus. Just because I'm in charge it doesn't give me the right to make someone's day awful just because his, or her, view doesn't coincide with mine! Having said that, Most desisions have to be made quickly and on the hoof. This I accept and if someone has made an error of judement, I'm happy to listen afterwards and take on board suggestions and complaints. This is my first year as fully qualified observer so the basics are fresh in my mind, I just wish I could say that of all observers.
Still, marshalling's still a giggle aint it?