Are V8 Supercars the future?

[Chucky]

Part of the woe faced by other classes do stem directly from AVESCO's interesting business practices.

[Robert Ryan]

Just do it...Here Here and Amen !!!!

[Rowdy]

No Chucky you didn't. I think I now maybe agree with you or you agree with me.

[D.R.T.]

Originally posted by White Knight
"AVESCO's antics" what do you mea

Since Avesco begun in Motorsport Promotions :

- An oldie ,but in 1999 regarding the "Bathurst Tourers", Avesco claimed there was a conspiracy aimed at providing confusion in the market place. As such these cars couldn't compete in the 1000. Rewind to 1997 and Avesco had no problem providing confusion in the market place by inventing another Bathurst event.

- Avesco activley persued the fastracking of the Carrera Cup Category for Aus in the objective of decreasing the strength of rival Nations Cup.

- Avesco's plan of critizing other Motorsport events including ALMS, Champcar (WRC watch out) in the aim of stealing dates and even whole events.

- Avesco has previously bagged out and shown disrespect to the WA events board over the WA Street race that was turned down. Do others remember what TC had to say ? It was pretty embarrassing.

- Avesco's current strategy of pitting Aus racing tracks against each other for its own gain.

- The huge sanctioning fees Avesco charges, draining the life blood of motorsport.

- Results of the huge sanctioning fees result in extra costs being passed onto the consumer

- Avesco seeking international events for an Australian domestic series.

- Last my favourite. Avesco building a dud pit lane, (where facilities where already provided) at the expense of a local communities park land.

Hmmmmmmm. Yeah Avesco's contrbution to Aus motorsport is something to be proud off.

[Just Do It!]

Thanks Robert. It grates the bee-gee-zuz out of me that people - and let's face it, dear Chucky isn't alone - can stand around and moan and whinge their date off about something, piffling time and negative energy into something that is more or less a proven and successful formula/method/business/product and expect that everyone else will jump on their bandwagon.

Well good luck to all them - I will love V8 Supercars until the day I die. And every single race meeting of every single year since 1996(??), AVESCO have done a fine and sterling job of creating a first-class spectator and family orientated sport that all of us can be truly proud of.

I take my hats off to them and speak openly, and from the heart. Like most of you, I am a passionate and loyal motorsport fan, and I have been for many a year - ever since I was a young kid of 6 or 7 and we used to talk about Nelson Piquet, Peter Brock, Keke Rosberg, Michele Alboreto, Niki Lauda, Dick Johnson, and the list could go on.
I really admire the guts, vision, and planning that it must have taken to step up to the challenge the way that AVESCO have, for SEL to put their neck out to risk too, for Tony Cochrane to put his neck on the line, the team owners who put their faith in SEL and Tony...again, the list goes on.

I remember all the times that Tony Cochrane was meant to be kicked out of AVESCO next week, soon, or next month. Piffle that came to what from the overly-jealous who? Exactly, TC is a stayer, a visionary, and a battler who has shifted the public's perception and awareness of motorsport up considerably in a short space of time.

And in the face of all of this achievement, the kickers still kick, the critics still bleat and moan, and the whingers still whinge. And collectively, what do they achieve? They same that they always have nothing.

So here is the challenge: Between now and 2012, all those of you who whinge, moan, criticise, and bleat about V8 Supercars have to get together. Your challenge is to build a motorsport series to rival where AVESCO, SEL, TC, and TEGA, Holden, and Ford have got V8 Supercars to today.

And I bet you one thing, I bet you that no one, not one single one of you pessimists get off your dates and do nine-tenths of five-eighths of stuff all towards it. And in 2012, you will still b!tch and moan and harp on tirelessly about the state of play, how motorsport could be better, who V8 Supercars are about to dwindle and go extinct, and how TC is going to be removed from AVESCO at the end of the year.

And those of us who love it, well we will still be loving it. We will be going to race meetings, watching on TV, talking about our beloved sport on forums, and having a blast about our passion.

Like you pessimists, we'll all be a lil older too. But by god, we will look a hell of a lot more youthful and be infinitely more happier than the b!tching whingers.

So come on, don't be shy, who is up for building a rival series. Step up and tell us. We are waiting, but we certainly won't be holding our breath in anticipation!

[GTRMagic]

Passion is a wonderful thing, to be very much behind the sport is great to see, to sing the praises of the positives, to be critical of the negatives to give a building block for even more improvements.

I wasnt aware V8Supercar was the only category of motorsport in Australia (and New Zealand, and China etc etc)

I do not dispute that the series is successful. I am concerned that there is not enough non-manufacturer funding in the series... and should one of them cut back (like Ford in F1 or Opel in DTM) the series (and many of its participants) will be worse off for it.

But V8Supercar is not the only game in town. It would not exist without the other categories around it. And I repeat, it would not exist without the other categories around it.

That series makes an incredible song and dance about the drivers within it that have a pedigree in Formula Ford... yet the Seriously broadcaster treats that category with utter contempt, their Trackside program showing nothing of those races.

I am old enough to remember an age when #7 had Formula Ford on seemingly every Sunday, talking to the up and comers of the sport, and actually showing the "little people" that Supercar forgets. Perhaps it was a simpler age....

Not every racing driver aspires to V8Supercar. Some in fact have an overseas dream, like Will Power, Ian Dyk, the Davison trio to name but a few.... but driving Supercar is not normally the ladder to achieve that... a recognised series like Formula Ford, F3 running late model cars compatible with the class overseas....

That the drivers in the Supercar series are children of this ladder process should mean that these series' receive support from the moneymachine of AVESCO shouldnt it, rather than 2nd hand rose 'support'

Or should we retain a myopia that all is lightness and sweet?

[D.R.T.]

Originally posted by Just Do It!


So here is the challenge: Between now and 2012, all those of you who whinge, moan, criticise, and bleat about V8 Supercars have to get together. Your challenge is to build a motorsport series to rival where AVESCO, SEL, TC, and TEGA, Holden, and Ford have got V8 Supercars to today.

I'll see that challenge. In all serious Yes. I am a young guy and I have been dreaming for 5 years now to one day have a career in this Industry. This is my objective.


But Just Do It and a lot of other people have to realise that Avesco didnt create V8 Supercar out of nowhere and by itself.

The current category that you speak so glowingly of is built on by many decades of work by alot of people more committed to motorsport than Avesco and especially Tony Cockrane.

[Robert Ryan]

DRT...You are Wrong!!! What they have built is the current formula . The ATTC had various incarnations over its life, but prior to 1993, it was looking pretty grim. There is NO comparison in what was the ATTC prior to 1993 and V8Supercar.

[Mattracer]

Elements of the ATCC are in V8Supercar. The cornerstone teams like DJR, CPR and HRT/HDT. The leading drivers the sport (Australian ouring Car Racing) was built on, the heritage- Brock, Johnson, Jim Richards. The Group C leading to Group A era- all the big names were still there through it all. Sure the scenery cahnged a bit but some things stayed the same. This is what the current series was built out of and has evolved from.

[D.R.T.]

Originally posted by Robert Ryan
DRT...You are Wrong!!! What they have built is the current formula . The ATTC had various incarnations over its life, but prior to 1993, it was looking pretty grim. There is NO comparison in what was the ATTC prior to 1993 and V8Supercar.

Your joking arent you.

No comparison, lets see

As stated, the teams, the drivers, the tracks even the cars, Commodores and Falcons have been run for years.

All these factors were common to the marketplace, it was still the Aus touring car championship.

More to the point Avesco came in 1997, so it so many decades to work with and the 5 years of the current formula.

Where as any new category has all this ground to try and make up.

[Robert Ryan]

Mattracer and DRT the professionalism and size of what V8Supercar is now is nothing like what Touring Car racing was back then. Yes it has some similarities , but it has moved on, it is more like NASCAR in the way it is organised and the affect it has on the general population. Although Bathurst as a race had the same impact as it does now, the ATTC series did not.

[Mattracer]

Out amongst the true fans it did...

[racer69]

Originally posted by Robert Ryan
What they have built is the current formula . The ATTC had various incarnations over its life, but prior to 1993, it was looking pretty grim. There is NO comparison in what was the ATTC prior to 1993 and V8Supercar.

To the general public it is still the same championship that has been running for years.

The championship also trades heavily on the 'Ford vs Holden' rivalry which they say has been built up over so many years (meaning many years before 1993)

I mean heck the new-for-1993 regulations were just an evolution to an extent of the Group A Holden Commodore's, not a revolution. In 1993 we still had 2.5ltr BMW's, Corolla's, Non-Turbo Sierra's, VL Walkinshaw Commodore's, even the ancient Gulson BMW 635csi came out to play. Plenty to compare with 1992 and before there. I mean the first year that the championship and Bathurst was 5 litre V8 only was 1995, because Steve Ellery made an appearance in the 2ltr Sierra in 1994 at Amaroo.

In the long run V8Supercars future depends on the success of the 'lower' (and i use that term loosely) forms of motorsport. If these categories are weak, then what will that say of the future 'stars' of Australian Touring Car racing?

[GTRMagic]

Meantime, the support classes are the treated like the ugly cousin from out of town.. tolerated because they are related somehow, but not embraced.

A shame the AVESCOites didnt pick up F3 next season, it should do well on the Australian Motor Racing Series next year... which includes the APCC & ATCC amongst others.

Could be an interesting little collection of race meetings that one

[rustyinsthoz]

People who think Ford vs Holden has only come about in the last ten years should look at the history of touring car racing in Australia . Ford vs Holden goes back to the 60s when you could actually buy the cars that the manufacturers raced .
Now it is all very artificial type racing where the rules have conspired to make the racing close . If you look through the history of the championship there has been no one on one final races to decide the championship like there was in 78 , 79 , 81 and 87 . Even the biggest Bathurst crowd was in 1987 when it was a round of the WTC .
To say todays v8s are better than the Touring cars of days gone by ? Better , no , just different . I consider it dumbed down racing for dumbed down people .

[Robert Ryan]

racer 1969. Age catches up to me. I was referring to the prior to an all V8 Formula. Group A was looking pretty grim and relatively pretty expensive compared to the Sponsorship and resources available.
I agree with what everyone says about a thriving support series. We need a healthy Sports Sedans, F3, F4000, GTP and what was Nations Cup to bring variety to our seen and provide opportunities for upand coming drivers.

[Just Do It!]

Originally posted by Mattracer
Out amongst the true fans it did...

Fair call, but look at all the new fans.

At the risk of having this thread shut down due to what I could say, it may be easier if I take no further part in it.

A sad indication of the way people "tall poppy" success.

Hmmmmmmm. Yeah Avesco's contrbution to Aus motorsport is something to be proud off.

Sorry I can't say I agree with you DRT. I didn't think that in the original AVESCO contract it said anything about looking after the rest of the sport. I reckon AVESCO have done a pretty good job of looking after their category.

Besides I'm sure that other groups such as even Procar didn't care two hoots about categories that were no under their influence.

Actually the latter group saunctioned Future Racers on to their program. Were they not near identical in spec to Aussie Races?

Maybe the real villian here is CAMS? They are the ones that supposedly run the sport in this country.

[D.R.T.]

Originally posted by White Knight
Sorry I can't say I agree with you DRT. I didn't think that in the original AVESCO contract it said anything about looking after the rest of the sport. I reckon AVESCO have done a pretty good job of looking after their category.

Wouldn't you think that a motorsport promoter, who has a passion for this sport, would have the forsight to preserve the sport, not to destroy it for personal gain.

Originally posted by White Knight
Besides I'm sure that other groups such as even Procar didn't care two hoots about categories that were no under their influence.
[/B]

DO you have an example of Procar mistreating its support categories? Because all that springs to mind is the harsh treatment of Procar.

[mixxer]

Open your eyes DRT what your describing doesnt even happen at a club or state level, check the various threads around the place, other clubs/organisors caring what their rivals are doing only in a perfect world would that happen.

I Think White Night left the T of no to become not in context of "didnt care two hoots about categories that were no"T" under their influence.
How about you give an example of how Procar did something for another race series. Why the hell would they ?

[Chucky]

I think the most annoying thing is that this sort of behaviour is virtually condoned in this country by being confused with success. It flows through many industries (banking and airlines come tomind) but it does usually have it's day when someone finally gets fed up.

That's why I don't think V8SC is the future. History has shown that this sort of dog has it's day.

[cavvy]

Originally posted by Chucky

That's why I don't think V8SC is the future.

I dont like the current V8SC model but I acknowledge its success & believe it will continue to prosper.

Being critical doesn't make you anti !!
This forum allows others with different opinions a say - a different view is wrong!!

[mixxer]

I'm interested in clarification on "the future", Tommorrow,next year or next 5-10 years are all in the future.
I hope that in 20 yrs time we will be supporting something different.
Series Production, Improved Prodution, Group C, Group A and Super Tourers all had a use by date, when they got to it the serie's was wrapped up and we moved on, much the same as we will do when the Tourers change again.
One things for certain you cant please all the people all the time.

[Chucky]

Give it five years for it to come to a head.

[mixxer]

Well using 5 yrs that would mean that the V8 series will have run for 16 yrs not to shabby a lifeline. Now lets compare previous incarnations of ATCC
pre 65 Series Production
65 - 72 Improved Prodution
73 - 84 Group C
85 - 92 Group A
93 series debut of the V8's - ???????