Hans Question

[greenamex2]

Please don't take this as debunking the research BUT all the articles relate to ridiculously fast vehicles running on ridiculously fast circuits (usually ovals) hitting ridiculously hard bits of armco/concrete very hard.

How relevant is this to me trundling around in a 70's designed saloon on road tyres?

Just to support the fact that I am NOT trying debunk the research, I have a HANS equipped helmet and spent this afternoon designing the relocated harness points to meet the FIA regulations. I just want to make sure I am not wasting my money.

[Tim Falce]

Dennis,
I think a fairly well known racer died in a Mini (new one) at Silverstone last year but one. He wasn't going overly fast when he hit a very solid concrete wall head on. He died of a broken neck, it was said he more than likely would have survived if he'd been wearing a HANS device.
My apologies if I have these facts wrong but at the time I sort of didn't want to think about that sort of accident so didn't pay too much attention to it.

Without going into the physics of it all (I'm not capable anyway), your head weighs quite a lot and even more when wearing a helmet so combined with a sudden deceleration even at a modest speed the G force could be more than your neck could take.
I don't think you've wasted your money.

[carsten.meurer]

as i stated in my first post, i am all for hans in the cars that it was designed for !
there aren't many type of accidents you are likely to have on a oval in nascars, so the chance it will be one hans was designed for is high !

it might even do a proper job in other cars, that were designed properly for the devise !

i just do not see enough pro points to make it mandatory in the nutshells most of us clubracers use !
even further i would say it can harm, as long as its not made sure that
seatbelts and all work for it !
plus in old single seaters you are likely not to find enough room for them !
especially when you try to duck into the cockpit once the wrong way up !

as there are surely more doubts ( if only for me personally ! ) as points
for it, i would like the choice !
after all i cannot make them pay anything if i get injured in a minor accident cause the belts didn't do theire job !

for me its still in its testing age, and far from a state it should be made mandatory for all !

[M100MSA]

Firtly I have to declare my obvious bias as my company MSAR is now a re-seller of Schroth and Hans in the UK. I would like to think that I can offer informed and balanced advice to anyone who wants information about the device. For my part I decided two years ago to purchase a Hans and as I was buying a new helmet the posts were fitted at the same time. Before taking this on I took the time to meet with Robert Hubbard and I did ask all of the cynical questions. The result was that I was convinced that the Hans is a major improvement in driver safety.

1: SUITABILITY: A Hans device can help in pretty much any car as long as the seat is good and a 6 point harness is in place and is correctly fitted.
2: SCIENCE: The weight if a crash helmet does substantially increase neck load as does an efficient harness system as all that Newtonian force has to go somewhere, if you want to see an example of that visit our website www.msar-safety.com and look at the animated gif of the sled test, look at what happens to the dummy's hed AND feet. As you can see wearing the device does not make the forces go away, the re-directed force is what causes the dummy's feet to rise in the screen that shows the impact with a Hans beinf used.
3: PRICE: We charge £540.00 plus VAT for a 20 degree Hans, delivery in the UK is free and the usual discounts apply. While that is a not insubstantial amount of money a Schroth Hans is made of Carbon Fibre and is made in Europe in very small quantities. Each device has a serial number and there is a rigid testing regime. A Carbon Fibre helmet currently costs over £2000 and I have just paid over £300 for an air box. Looking at the comparative items the price seems in line with other Carbon fibre goods. Thankfully I make my living out of more than motorsport because the gross margins on these products are actually very low. Unlike a lot of items the Hans is not "lifed" so you should get years and years out of one.
4: FUNCTION: In certain types of accident a Hans device is the only item that can prevent a BSF, there is no middle ground here that injury is fatal. I think it is accepted that there are quite a few pro-drivers that are still around because of the device.
5: COMFORT: Like any item it takes some getting used to but I now feel more comfortable with the device than without it.
6: VISIBILITY: The tethers do not have to be so short that you can not look through a corner, visibility issues are a complete fallacy.
7: ADVICE: I started MSAR because getting a straight answer to anything was never easy, if anyone wants information about Hans or Harnesses please email to info@msar-safety.com

thanks

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by M100MSA

...Unlike a lot of items the Hans is not "lifed" so you should get years and years out of one.

Lets hope it stays that way. I'd hate to have a stock of Hans that I have to bin after a while. For the time being I do not stock them.
Getting to know the working way of FIA better every day, I doubt the systems will be left without an "expiry" date.

[MikeBz]

Originally Posted by M100MSA

A Carbon Fibre helmet currently costs over £2000

I'm sure you can pay that much but you can buy a very good helmet for a quarter of that.

I'm in favour of HANS, but the price is silly at the moment.

Mike

[Al Weyman]

and is made in Europe in very small quantities.

M100MSA can I ask this then. If they were made mandatory and therefore you would be selling many many more, can you forsee the price dropping?

I'm sure you can pay that much but you can buy a very good helmet for a quarter of that.

I bought an FIA sanctioned hans compatable one for less than a tenth of that!!!! Not carbon fibre but when the car weighs 1440kgs and I weigh 125 kgs what the heck

[M100MSA]

My role is as a re-seller but I think it obvious that if they were mandatory everywhere then prices would fall. However I dont think by much because as motorsport is a minority activitythe numbers will never be that great. I know when I started out I was surprised at the cost of a car racing helmet when compared to those for bikes. I think Carbon is used for a couple of reasons, firstly because it is an ideal material and secondly because the Hans started life at the upper echelon of racing where weight is everything and cost is not the principle issue. Finally though lets put cost into perspective, motorsport is never going to be cheap and if a Hans only lasts as long as a helmet then the cost is around £120 per year. Ultimately the decision of whether or not it is worth the cost has to be with the indvidual.

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

M100MSA can I ask this then. If they were made mandatory and therefore you would be selling many many more, can you forsee the price dropping?
I bought an FIA sanctioned hans compatable one for less than a tenth of that!!!! Not carbon fibre but when the car weighs 1440kgs and I weigh 125 kgs what the heck

[midgetman]

Fascinating piece of video M100MSA. Now, I'm not against safety improvements and may be buying a HANS but can you help me with a reality check.

This video simulates a crash at 50kmh. MGDavid who contributes to this board had a head-on impact last season at more like 100kmh, wasn't wearing a HANS, and is still posting here so we can assume he didn't suffer BSF.

His legs were badly thrown around (he bent my clutch pedal). Does the HANS increase the risk of severe leg injury? And what is the incidence of BSF in club racing - we've only had one cited here. But I can also think of three racing drivers off the top of my head dying at the wheel from heart attacks, and ECG prior to every practice or race isn't yet mandatory.

Do they have to be carbon fibre? Presumably we could have speed-rated HANS (like speed rated tyres) so those of us without F1 cars can have a cheaper plastic one more suited to our wallets/risk.

If they're compulsory, what happens in Historic cars where belts are not mandatory? How's a 250F Maserati going to make a HANS work with neither cage not belts. I can see exemptions lists appearing.

And finally, what happens when the worldwide carbon fibre shortage hits sideshows like HANS manufacture? Not heard of that? Well, pick up any cycling magazine and you'll see the pressure being put upon high-end bike manufacturers because the US military take it all into Iraq.

My beef is, you can clearly see that belts and helmets reduce injury at club level. So do overalls, although some (not me, I sell them!) may argue that fire is not a big incidence in a race car. Despite the links given previously, I have NOT seen ANY proof that BSF is a big problem in club racing/rallying. Please someone, for the sake of my peace-of-mind, tell me that the evidence exists so I can make an adult decision.

[Al Weyman]

I can't see them being much good made of plastic but what about metal if weight is not a major consideration. No forget that, I can;t see that working.

Looking at the video I can't see why a couple of secondary straps from the seat belts would not achieve the same thing

[midgetman]

>>>>> I can't see them being much good made of plastic

Sorry I'm not an engineer I used it as a generic term.

[Eddy V]

The thing is guys, that the manufacturers of Hans started with carbon because of those F1 prima donnas. They just stick with it because they don't give a dam about "lower" racing. And they make 'em in low quantities because, like poor little me , don't want to have a surplus when everybody has a Hans.
Why make it cheaper and of cheaper materials when FIA is making it slowly mandatory?

[greenamex2]

EddyV, surely you not inferring that the entire motorsport governing body infrastructure the world over couldn't care less about us poor penniless club competitors?

[Eddy V]

Nooooooooooooo,

[Randy]

I have been weighing up the pros and cons of getting a hans device for a while and I’m still somewhat undecided. It’s great to read this thread because there have been some points raised which I haven’t even considered.

Mobility in the cockpit is my primary concern and I’m a big believer that, safety wise, it’s better to stop the accident happening in the first place and constricting vision could cause problems. I’ve chatted to a number of Hans users who have all confirmed that, to some degree, the device does restrict some neck movement. Having had silly things happen it the cockpit like the radio cable to my helmet getting caught up and restricting movement I can see there are potential issues with the straps getting in the way at just he wrong moment.

On the plus side I have direct experience of accidents where the Hans would definitely have helped. Last year I hit the outside wall at woodcote at 80-90mph at about 45 degrees. My neck still isn’t quite right and I’m sure this would have been avoided if I had been wearing a Hans.

The other issues I see is that if you are driving many different cars (I will be racing a couple of Group-C cars, a Prosport LM3000 and probably an Elise this year) I can’t see one device fitting all. Seating position is radically different in a Group-C compared to an Elise and in endurance racing you need to be comfortable. When I’m in the Group-C I have to admit that with the huge speeds involved it does concern me what would happen if/as/when I hit the wall hard.

Cost wise, if they are a big safety benefit, I can stomach £600 in the same way that I’m always willing to buy a very good helmet. You only have one head after all. Although I’m sure they are relatively cheap to make I bet the development costs were huge and there product liability insurance must be horrendous.

Really I need to test one in various cars to see how I get on before buying but I don’t know if this is possible?

[Al Weyman]

Interesting Randy but the point about product liability insurance I bet you any money you like they have had lawers working on that one and it will be 'Used at owners risk' etc etc blah de blah. In other words no liability if it don't work!

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by Randy

Having had silly things happen it the cockpit like the radio cable to my helmet getting caught up and restricting movement I can see there are potential issues with the straps getting in the way at just he wrong moment.

No problems with the straps getting in the way, they are too short for that. It is rather the lack of movement of the upper body what causes the view restrictions.

Originally Posted by Randy

Last year I hit the outside wall at woodcote at 80-90mph at about 45 degrees. My neck still isn’t quite right and I’m sure this would have been avoided if I had been wearing a Hans.

Your neck may still hurt when wearing a Hans, but not that bad.

Originally Posted by Randy

The other issues I see is that if you are driving many different cars (I will be racing a couple of Group-C cars, a Prosport LM3000 and probably an Elise this year) I can’t see one device fitting all. Really I need to test one in various cars to see how I get on before buying but I don’t know if this is possible?

Correct, they come from 10 to 40°. Best thing is to look for some people willing to borrow their Hans for you to try. You'd need something like a 25 or 30° system.

[Al Weyman]

Or one for each car, then it will get expensive

[flagwaver]

Whilst BSF fractures thankfully are rare, what the HANS does is reduce neck injuries. That neck injury may only be a very stiff neck, but if that means you can't work for a week then I would have thought the HANS would pay for itself.

[Tim Falce]

So if they can save a stiff neck, how well do they work in sideways impacts or maybe 45 degrees backwards into a tyre wall (my favourite) I like to use a neck brace as I have a bad back and neck anyway and this helps for general cornering forces and it worked well when I hit a trye wall as above once.

[MikeBz]

Using a cheaper material wouldn't make a great deal of difference to the price - there isn't an awful lot of material there, certainly not hundreds of £ worth.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by falcemob

So if they can save a stiff neck, how well do they work in sideways impacts or maybe 45 degrees backwards into a tyre wall (my favourite) I like to use a neck brace as I have a bad back and neck anyway and this helps for general cornering forces and it worked well when I hit a trye wall as above once.

They don't. You need a seat with wrap around 'ears' for those situations.

[flagwaver]

Actually Dennis it does have some effect on sideinpacts in helps to limitthe sideways movement as well.(if the straps are not to long. The HANS does not offer any protection in a rearward impact as the head is forced back into the headrest (if one is fitted) The HANS device itself will not have any effect on the forces exerted on the neck in a rearward inpact.
The big thing that can limit the effectivness of the HANS is the length of the tethers to long & the HANS is all but useless, too short & it will severely restrict your movement & possibly increase the risk of injury.

[greenamex2]

To check the effective of sideways protection do the following -

Nod your head forward and measure the amount it moves.

Nod you head sideways and measure the amount it moves.

Unless you are my six month old baby you will notice a marked difference in the measurements!

In a sideways impact all the hans will do is force your head progressively backwards and round in an arc dictated by the overall length of the tethers minus the gap between helment tether mountings and the back of the helmet. By the time your head has hit the seat and movement has been 'arrested' (typically about 6 to 8 inches, although could be a lot more) it will probably have fallen off!

On the other hand a seat with 'ears' will stop your head within a couple of inches, and will give greater protection in the 45 degree backwards situation.

I'm not knocking the hans device, in fact I am currently modifying my car to work with one, but it really does just help prevent damage in a severe frontal impact situation.

[flagwaver]

If you are talking of the head moving sideways then yes the HANS will not do a great deal. But in the situation where the head is twisted then the hans will offer some protection.