Mosler GT3

[EuropaBambaataa]

This is only happening because the FIA still has to come up with GT3 technical regulations. If there were then National championships could accept the Mosler without the nuisance of homologations. I like balanced competition, but I also like variety in the grids.

[davemk7]

preformance balancing and not car limits is the way forward.....this is a real shame. Good luck winning british gt next year with the mosler.

less silly rules and more competive cars! fia get the mosler in now.

[Suze]

Great post Martin and interesting to hear it from you (car did look good in Cologne!).

The way it seems to be though is a big shame, but best of luck for BGT.

[old man]

I have every sympathy for Martin Short, particularly given the story in his excellent post and someone has obviously let him down but I do have to raise a query: When does a short run racing car become a production car? Cars like the Saleen, Mosler and for that matter the Radical are built purely for racing but when you have to you can raise the ride height, fit a silencer and make one road legal. If you invest millions producing a production car and market it world wide there is a point when you have to consider that a "special" produced to beat you in races is not fair competition. I would ask a similar question in reverse of the Corvette which, as we know from other threads in this forum, uses engine parts not available to a private team, is that fair to the private entrant who wants to compete? It has to work both ways and the rule makers must be consistent, GT racing is for production cars set up for racing, not racing cars set up to get them through the qualification process. It can be argued that the Maserati does not fit really, how many were sold as road cars?

We may disagree with the numbers required for homologation and I am all in favour of a car that comes in at a reasonable price but the LMP classes are for racing specials, the GT classes for production cars that go racing. I take the point about TVR but they were a company that made road cars as their primary business and perhaps the homologation process should be able to examine what is the main business of the manufacturer. The same should apply of course to the Ascari and if they are granted a waiver then why not Mosler but if I were Mr Porsche, Mr Ferrari or Mr Ford (AM division) I would question the credentials of such cars in this class.

Where does the Panoz fit? That is without doubt a road car that is going racing but how many have been made? And what about the Spyker, how many of those have been sold for the road as they are obviously intended as a road car first, then a racer

I know that the premium charged by the Grande Marques for their racing versions makes them a nice bit of niche marketing income and people who want to race deserve less expensive options but lines have to be drawn and what we need is consistency. The McLaren F1 GTR was a road car that was not intended for racing originally but did it very well, does the Mosler fit the same pattern Martin?

As a spectator I want to see close exciting racing that I can follow and don't really mind if they are road cars or racing cars so long as it is a level playing field but in GT I expect to see cars that I am likely to see in the car park. If we take it to extremes you would drop a replica body on an LMP and call it a GT just like people did in UK saloon racing some years ago when we had Skodas winning races when as road cars they were a joke.

[geeteeone]

Although it may look a bit like one, I think the Mosler is much more than just a homologation special. Mosler really do seem to be making a real effort to supply road cars, and not just a quickly cobbled together race car with a silencer either. From what I've seen, the road cars appear to be a hell of a lot more practical and easier to live with than any number of other low volume sports cars. And since they're largely based on General Motors parts, I bet the servicing is a lot cheaper too.

I therefore feel that Martin has been very hard done by here. It's not like the GT2 version has blown everything else away either - it was as quick as, but no quicker than, the average Porsche RSR or Ferrari 360, and probably slower than the 430. With performance balancing I can't see the GT3 car being any quicker than anything else.

I hate to see the big manufacturers crowding out the small guys. There has to be a place for smaller manufacturers in international GT racing.

[old man]

I don't disagree about small manufacturers but that is the point, are they manufacturers? As to not blowing them away, who. apart from Martin has driven them? Give them to drivers of the caibre of Collard, Rockenfeller or Melo for example and then talk about comparative performance

[EuropaBambaataa]

Originally Posted by old man

I don't disagree about small manufacturers but that is the point, are they manufacturers? As to not blowing them away, who. apart from Martin has driven them? Give them to drivers of the caibre of Collard, Rockenfeller or Melo for example and then talk about comparative performance

Well, that was the whole point of having Christophe Bouchut test all the GT3 cars a year ago. To have a top driver compare performance between cars. It's been done before, it can be done again.

I don't get why the FIA is being so contrary. It's also troubling they're applying double standards. Ascari has specifically said they're not building more than 50 road-going KZ1s, and they're let in. And to be honest, I don't see them being used outside Zwart's island retreat, so how come they're "road-going"?

[Graham Goodwin]

First things first - there's one thing here that really rankles - The GT scene is dominated in both regulatory and numerical terms by the grand marques - Answer me this one then.

If the same rules that are now being applied to wanabe GT3 entrants in 2006 had been applied to those marques 50 or more years ago we'd probably be watching Wolseley, Simca and the like banging heads in GT racing.

Opinion one says rules are rules

Opinion two says natural justice has not been served here.

There are many followers of Porsche, Ferrari, Aston, Jaguar and the like that look down their noses at those they presume have less of a sense of history than they themselves display.

My response would be - Is that so? Well if you have a sense of history and heritage perhaps you'd like to put one foot in front of the other and offer newcomers exactly the same chance that set your fine marques on the road they tread so gracefully. I understand the business protocols but this is sport - Show the new boys that you aren't afraid of the challenge chaps - Lets see the handful of pretenders to your thrones take their best shot - Surely that's something that could only be a good news story for you in the long run?


As for Panoz btw - I visited their Braselton factory last year - This is a proper production car but 200 cars a year might be something of a stretch!

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

My response would be - Is that so? Well if you have a sense of history and heritage perhaps you'd like to put one foot in front of the other and offer newcomers exactly the same chance that set your fine marques on the road they tread so gracefully. I understand the business protocols but this is sport - Show the new boys that you aren't afraid of the challenge chaps - Lets see the handful of pretenders to your thrones take their best shot - Surely that's something that could only be a good news story for you in the long run?

I coudnt agree more, it would seem to me that Porsche and Ferrari are perhaps a little bit wary of what the likes of the Mosler could do in the GT3 class.

[rdjones]

I feel really sorry for Shorty and the guy's at Mosler, they have come along from there first race in europe (British GT round at Donington end of 2002 IIRC). Why shouldn't they why shouldn't they have a crack at the FIA GT3 championship at the end of the day they have shown that they are competive in every championship they have raced in.

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by rdjones

at the end of the day they have shown that they are competive in every championship they have raced in.

From the other manufacturers perspective, that's maybe the problem!

[Gunman]

Nice post Martin.

If nothing else, at least I/we/Mosler Auto/Rollcentre/Breckland can take a little pride in knowing we had a hand in designing a car that Ferrari, Porsche, and Jaguar are afraid of

[cmk]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

I coudnt agree more, it would seem to me that Porsche and Ferrari are perhaps a little bit wary of what the likes of the Mosler could do in the GT3 class.

For Ferrari to be worried, I think they'd actually have to be proud of what they could do in the GT3 class. With the exception of Simonsen's magic in the wet at Silverstone, their entry hasn't even looked remotely competitive.

[AstonGeoff]

There is also an issue that is in a few years time (if not already) some of the teams in GT3 will drop out or move up to GT2/1, so there will be a shortage of teams and cars. No doubt it will end up populated in the main by Porsches just like GT2, probably cos they are cheaper to buy and run. At that point everyone will be going "isn't it sad that GT3 has gone the way of the other classes, shame there isn't another cheap'ish to buy and run car" I know the Mosler isn't cheap, but it's way cheaper than many of GT3 cars, and I bet with GM running gear in the main and it's design it'll be a lot cheaper to run in the short term and probably easier for less experienced teams to run in the future.

I'm an Aston fan and was pleased to see thenm return to racing last year, but variety is the spice of life, and the more cars there are in GT3 the better!

I've got to know Shortie and his family and team quite a bit over the last couple of years and they are a great bunch of people, I just hope he can get sufficient orders from the national championships to make the Mosler GT3 a financial success, and that it goes on to be very successful, especially in Brit GT, I can't face another season of those Dancing Donkeys cleaning up!

[Go_For_Pole]

The way FIA GT3 is structured and priced will keep it successful for a very good while. As for the “is it fair to reject the Mosler” discussion, if they had entered last year, nobody would reject them. Now that the concept is proven FIA has every right to be picky, remember GA did exactly the same thing with Lola. As a series you have to protect the interests of those that stood up for you in the first place.

[hgb]

I disagree there, the FIA should respect the teams too, not only the big manufacturers. As far as I know, Zakspeed was one of the potential clients who have choosen a Mosler for next season. They had their reasons why they selected the Mosler and not any other brand. The FIA clearly ignores this. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the would-be GT3 teams retreat to one of the national series where they are not patronized by the governing body. The behaviour of the FIA is a joke.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

There are many followers of Porsche, Ferrari, Aston, Jaguar and the like that look down their noses at those they presume have less of a sense of history than they themselves display.

My response would be - Is that so? Well if you have a sense of history and heritage perhaps you'd like to put one foot in front of the other and offer newcomers exactly the same chance that set your fine marques on the road they tread so gracefully.

Like Aston Geoff (#89), I, too, am a huge fan of the stunning Astons, but I also have a great deal of sympathy for Martin and the Mosler. I was fortunate enough to visit the the factory a year or so back and it was great to see how many of these cars were being laid down. They should have been allowed in, and, of course, Graham, I am just about old enough to remember the racing sports cars of the 'grand marques' in the 1950s even though I was but a lad!

[old man]

Originally Posted by hgb

I disagree there, the FIA should respect the teams too, not only the big manufacturers. As far as I know, Zakspeed was one of the potential clients who have choosen a Mosler for next season. They had their reasons why they selected the Mosler and not any other brand. The FIA clearly ignores this. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the would-be GT3 teams retreat to one of the national series where they are not patronized by the governing body. The behaviour of the FIA is a joke.

Now if Zakspeed ran the Mosler we would see the same as we saw when they ran the Saleen, that would be interesting

[Asa]

If there are rules for FIA GT3 and the Mosler satisfies all the rules then it should be allowed in.

I think what Aston, Ferrari, Jaguar and Porsche did was anti-competition, I am not a lawyer but there might be a law somewhere that disallow this kind of behaviour.

I understand the manufacturers spent billions to develop a car and then more to market it, but it is a free market out there and the public are free to choose what they want to buy.

If your product is good enough then there should not be any worries over other similar products, unless other products enjoy an unfair advantage, which doesn't seem to apply in this case.

[old man]

Yes but as I said earlier when is a racer a road car and vice-versa. The homologation production figures define, as I understand it (?) that 200 per annum should be procuced, The argument really is; in that case why is the Ascari allowed in and the Mosler not if the Ascari does not make 200 per annum. That is a lot of cars at £50/60K and more each and we may feel that it is an unrealistic figure for high performance sports cars, if so what should it be? Make it 20 per annum and what do you let in then, a road legal Radical perhaps?

GT3 is a class for cars that you and I could run ( ) on a daily basis, GT2 and 1 is for more exotic versions and LMP for outright racers and the rules should be adhered to for all people, no exceptions. If people don't like the rules then work to get them changed. The problem is inconsistent policing

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by old man

in that case why is the Ascari allowed in and the Mosler not if the Ascari does not make 200 per annum.

Because they (and Ratel's Venturi) dared to join GT3 when this championship was announced? If Mosler had done the same they would be homologated too?

[rdjones]

Did the Venturi actully take part in any the FIA GT3 races this year?

[911 GT1]

No, only the official tests at Paul Ricard and a private test by Venturi. The car has never raced this year. As far as I know there is only one chassis existing.

[Dragaan]

I saw it race in an invitational class at Silverstone where it wiped the floor with most of the opposition, especially the Astons. I'm not sure what engine it was using, but if it was testing its GT3 engine then this season in the FIA should be 'interesting' to say the least!
I'm just really glad that the Mosler will be in the British GT. Apart from loving the car, the Rollcentre team are an amazing bunch. They made my family feel very welcome at Silverstone and went out of their way for us despite preparing for the race. They are one of the many teams last year that remember the people who come to support them and BGT racing.

Its interesting to note that the world council were happy to have the Mosler in next year as long as there were no complaints. Were they just attempting to 'wash their hands' of the situation so they could blame the manufacturers? What about the 'What, Mosler are wanting to run an GT3 car next year? Quick, lets change the rules. Hmmm...give me a number someone. 200? Ok...200 production cars it is then. There, THAT should stop them. Whew, that was a close one!' Madness. As for the manufacturers themselves, it all reminds me of the older kids at school who bully the new kids with the attitude 'its our school so we can do what we're like. We're big, you're small and there's nothing you can do about it!' They forget totally that they used to be the new kids on the block once.
It's also sad that their objections seem to be based purely on the cars affordability compared to their own. It's not that they're afraid of loosing a race to them since the Mosler could easily go through a performance balancing programme as it is for the National GT's. Its all about money and not wanting to loose custom to another championship. Its not like you hear Saleen complaining despite one of their best teams Zakspeed wanting to drive a Mosler next year.
In the FIA's attempt to become as popular as F1, wouldn't it be sad if it succumbed to the petty politics that accompany F1 racing? But it looks like that road is already beckoning.
Does anyone from the FIA actually read this? It would be interesting to hear their comments. Or maybe even Aston, Jaguar or Porsche.

[old man]

I think by FIA you mean the FIA GT series organisers and I think the answer to that is a firm NO