Datalogging - Page 4

greenamex2 · 21 May 2008, 17:39 (Ref:2208471)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Jingles

E) Would I be better off waiting to get a system 2 / x-sport / omega?
F) Have you got one for sale?

I have just got an Omega with the Compact Logger. I haven't used it in anger yet but so far I am really impressed.

The display is streets ahead of the System 2 and the sheer convenience of 'downloading' by pulling out a CF card is going to make my life so much easier. Throw in the fixed circuit beacon meaning I haven't got to rely on someone to look after on in the pit lane and it was no contest.

Compared to my old Astratech system that this is replacing it is easer to use and has far more functionality. The 'Club Qualifying Mode' is going to be really interesting.

Compared to my Stack System in my kit car, it is more expensive AND has less software features. However it all seems much more suited to my needs, especially with the circuit beacons and CF cards.

I nearly went for the Race Technology system but was put off by the buggy software, the bugs and problems being constantly reported on the forum, the relatively low contrast of the display and the fact that the PI system was much easier to install and run (wiring loom provided, pre-calibrated sensors etc). However it was a really close call with the RT system working out at half the price!

Seriously looked at the Motec system, it is the best in EVERY department, but I just couldn't stomach the cost. I reckoned aroung £5K with loom, sensors etc. Again a really close call, it is a lovely display and the software is brilliant.

My advice?

To re-iterate and expand what tristan said, you will spend far more time looking at the software than the display so try out all the various vendors software and decide how much you would pay for each one.

For me convenience won out more than anything else.

greenamex2 · 21 May 2008, 17:43 (Ref:2208475)

Oh and one other thing that did it for me.

Support.

PI have been fantastic. Yatin and Jason have been patient beyond belief with my nearly two years of questions.

RT have a good forum but seem to rely on customers helping each other. However they do seem to have been a lot better recently so maybe it was just a resource issue in the past that has now been resolved.

Stack's "support" is somewhere between hopeless and non-existant. I have an email folder full of questions I sent them and never had a response to.

Mr.Jingles · 23 May 2008, 09:17 (Ref:2209635)

Cheers guys. I've got an offer from another racer @ Combe to take a looksie at a DL1 / Dash 2 combo, and one of my teammates has a PI system in, so we'll see how they compare!

speedsense · 9 Jul 2008, 04:26 (Ref:2247659)

A few data trivia questions...

The first racing data company?
The first DA company to have a trackmap in their software?
The first to plot data directly on their trackmap?
The first to have a steering wheel, throttle, brake graphic that every driver can relate to?
The first to have a moving plane against a car table set up plane graphic to show the suspension movement?
The first to not have a beacon, but time through GPS?

Clue- it's the same company and they are still in business...

tzei · 9 Jul 2008, 09:49 (Ref:2247822)

Bosch?

Mr.Jingles · 9 Jul 2008, 13:13 (Ref:2247959)

Casio?

PM me a clue, oh baiting-salesman

tristancliffe · 9 Jul 2008, 22:32 (Ref:2248297)

I wanna know too!

And does anyone have experience in the real world (i.e. not sample data) with Racepak stuff, and more importantly their IQ3 dashlogger and Vnet system (which is also on the G2X system)?

speedsense · 10 Jul 2008, 05:58 (Ref:2248393)

Competition Data Systems
www.competitiondata.com
Why is this important? Take a look at the PI toolbox and the CDS software.. why do they look similar?
If you took the programmers or the engineers that design the most popular DA systems and put them in the trenches to setup your racecar, make your drivers faster and analyze the data from your race car and tell you what to change, could they do it? Can their support people, analyze your data and tell you how to be faster? They don't, a lot can't and most weren't hired to do so. But they design the software, provide the tools (graphs) for you to make these decisions, without understanding how to do it themselves. What other type of company in racing does this. Even engine builders charge to be at the race track, but they are in there tuning your engine to be faster.
DA companies charge you to fix, most of the time, their own problems or your own lack of understanding of their product, do they actually make you faster? Only a couple do. But they do offer other notiable people for you to pay for learning how to read data.
Why isn't their software program good enough to do it for you?
The most important aspect of your racing program, is how much you know about your driver, and with a well designed DA software you can know literally know almost everything.
A driver may make 300 decisions a lap, and in a session of 10 laps may only remember, if he's good at recall, 20 of the 3000 decisions he's just made. Usually the one's saving his rear end, are the ones that get pointed out and adjusted on the car! That leaves 2980 decisions not being considered.
With any DA software, no matter the system and someone with a little knowledge of graphs, you might fudge this number to about 2800, and you will get a seemingly big improvement. A little knowledge that you didn't have before can go a long way.
However, a software package designed with the tools that are from an experienced racing wise company that understands what you the racers need to know, and making it possible that you can track half of those decisions...Where will your team be with that knowledge?

It's the software package and how well it allows you to easily know every aspect of your racecar and driver, that should be the very first thing on the list to consider in a DA system.

The dash board, the GPS, the lights and the billboard are only a small percentage of the equation. It is the software and the analysis ability of it that will win races.. and how you can understand the information. Even if your team is only on a club level, it doesn't matter, racing is a need to know information business.

I will get off of my soap box with a few questions...

If I had a set of tires that will give a second every time would you buy them? And when they wear out would you buy them again?
For the price of those two sets of tires, you could have that second for the rest of your racing career with the right DA system

PI knows this and so does CDS...

greenamex2 · 10 Jul 2008, 06:41 (Ref:2248412)

Had a quick look at the web site.

Never heard of it before, doesn't seem to be 'pushed' over here.

On the basis of the web site alone I won't of considered it if it was available of here. It all looks a bit tacky and gimmicky compared to PI or Stack's sites.

Totally agree on the possible benefits of data logging though. However for the clubman I would say that checking for potential engine problems is the first justification rather than going faster. In my instance I was able to track down a failing fuel pump and pressure regulator which, if left unrepaired, would have ultimately resulted in a melted piston. In the past I have also identified slowly failing bearings by being able to track oil pressure over time.

Also agree that it is probably the software that is the most important part of a data logging system. The driver can spend 15 minutes a session driving the car, probably less than a tenth of that actually looking at the display and then potentially hours looking at the data logging after. Give most drivers a decent shift light, a lap time display and a big red warning light and they probably don't need much more.

tristancliffe · 10 Jul 2008, 10:30 (Ref:2248545)

Also had a look, and also never heard of them.

As Denis says, the website has a childish, amateur look to it, that wouldn't encourage me to buy anything. There are also claims made about the lap gain/loss display being unique, when a number of DA systems are using them already. And if the software, which I haven't tried yet, is similar to the PI CEW then I will be avoiding, as I hate it.

It is, however, another option to add to the list, and I'll play with the software and read more of the website over the next few weeks.

littlefarny · 11 Jul 2008, 12:10 (Ref:2249143)

Anyone have any real world data that'd work with MoTec i2? It'd be great to actually try and decipher some of it, I try every month in Racecar Engineering and nearly always get it right!

greenamex2 · 11 Jul 2008, 12:25 (Ref:2249155)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

And if the software, which I haven't tried yet, is similar to the PI CEW then I will be avoiding, as I hate it.

I like PI CEW because it's simple.

However if I could import in to MOTEC's I2 I would be even happier!

speedsense · 12 Jul 2008, 04:54 (Ref:2249537)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

Also had a look, and also never heard of them.

As Denis says, the website has a childish, amateur look to it, that wouldn't encourage me to buy anything. There are also claims made about the lap gain/loss display being unique, when a number of DA systems are using them already. And if the software, which I haven't tried yet, is similar to the PI CEW then I will be avoiding, as I hate it.

It is, however, another option to add to the list, and I'll play with the software and read more of the website over the next few weeks.

My apologies about the look of the website, it is quite acient and seriously needs upgrading. CDS needs to do what Pi, Stack and Aim have done and hire a professional website company to make the website better looking.
But that doesn't mean they don't know how to build a racing DA system.
The laptime gain/loss table is quite different in how it processes the gain/loss. Almost all systems use the fastest lap, and compare your current time on the track (say 1/4 of the way through) as a gain or loss, this is judged by an "if you drove exactly the same" as the fastest lap, the rest of the way.
The CDS gain/loss is compiled by programable sections of the track (350meter sections for instance) and the gain/loss is compared to that section, irregardless of how you drove the rest of the lap, on the fastest lap that it's being compared to. Much more accurate and not unlike how a driver learns a racetrack. This feature has a patent on it.
Having used the PI software and feel quite efficent at it, the CDS software is 10 times easier and just as many times quicker at analysis. Because of it's layout and flexiablity, you can do an very complete analysis of driver and suspension in a third of the time to do the same type of analysis in the others. (Motec, Pi)
Though the website may not be all that great, the system itself, has a very impressive history of championships and race wins involvement in the majority of pro level and club level racing in the US. And is the only system I know of that offers a life time warranty on the logger.
CDS is currently trying to replace a rep in the UK, and so far has not found a replacement. Their presence in the UK and Europe, has suffered because of it.

tristancliffe · 12 Jul 2008, 10:44 (Ref:2249624)

I know of at least one dashlogger that compares the current lap time with the best lap time on a real time basis (I don't know the details). All it's doing is comparing numbers in a table. I wouldn't have thought a patent on maths and numbers would hold up in court to be honest.

However, the lifetime warranty is worth thinking about - that's confidence for you! I'm off to play with your software and read some more about it.

tristancliffe · 12 Jul 2008, 11:01 (Ref:2249632)

No rev counter (other than a digital readout). Still seems to use beacons. Tiny screen.

Can't find the software to play with. And without playing with the software first I wouldn't pay £10 for any of the system.

I tried to like it. I tried to learn how good the software is. But I failed.

littlefarny · 12 Jul 2008, 15:31 (Ref:2249700)

I run my own product review website, have coded several others for various other people/companies, and am also training to become a racecar engineer.

I'm also very much free at the moment, so if a new web design is what is required, if anyone has a link with them drop me a PM and I'll be more than happy to help!

Mr.Jingles · 13 Jul 2008, 23:13 (Ref:2250364)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

No rev counter (other than a digital readout). Still seems to use beacons. Tiny screen.

Can't find the software to play with. And without playing with the software first I wouldn't pay £10 for any of the system.

I tried to like it. I tried to learn how good the software is. But I failed.

I think putting the software behind a 'request a username and password' barrier is a bad decision (see http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000881.html). Changing this alone would help and is easy to do.

I see GPS listed on the site - again though, they haven't really highlighted it enough.

As for the rev counter - without seing the docs on what the display can be configured to do, you are probably right. It's hard to prove otherwise given the info availalble.

greenamex2 · 14 Jul 2008, 07:21 (Ref:2250459)

I have got to say that in the 1.25 laps of Oulton that my diff lasted I was very impressed with the sequetiual shift lights on the Omega display. I expect when I am used to them I probably won't even bother looking at the rev counter any more.

tristancliffe · 14 Jul 2008, 08:26 (Ref:2250496)

I don't look at my rev counter for shifting. But it is nice to be able to tell, at a glance, what revs you are doing in or out of a corner, or when warming up the engine. I've found with digital (as in numerical) RPM displays that the numbers are too much to read and remember (and they change too quickly), whereas a line graph (on a digital dash) or a needle are easier to remember a snapshot and automatically give you an idea of 'rate of change'.

Only an idiot, in my opinion, would drive or race a car at club level without some sort of rev counter, other than pure numerals.

greenamex2 · 14 Jul 2008, 08:34 (Ref:2250499)

The PI Omega sequential shift light (like many others) acts like a simple rev counter. On mine the first light comes on at 6800RPMish and the eigth and final light comes on at 8800RPMish.

I suppose you have to get used to how many light should always be on, and shift when the final one lights, you aren't concerned about the actual values.

It's going to be interesting to see how it works in practice.

Mr.Jingles · 14 Jul 2008, 11:46 (Ref:2250585)

Having a look at some of the systems used in the UD (besides CD's) I've noticed quite a few are based on hardened PDA's (e.g. they can pretty much display anything).

It's more expensive I guess, but much more flexible and totally different approach to the displays here.... anybody think that people would be interested in over here if it was available?

tristancliffe · 14 Jul 2008, 11:51 (Ref:2250592)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

The PI Omega sequential shift light (like many others) acts like a simple rev counter. On mine the first light comes on at 6800RPMish and the eigth and final light comes on at 8800RPMish.

I suppose you have to get used to how many light should always be on, and shift when the final one lights, you aren't concerned about the actual values.

It's going to be interesting to see how it works in practice.

Sounds horrible. Lights just on all the time would be distracting for me. I want my shift lights to come on over a narrow band prior to shifting - say 500rpm. I don't want to exit corners, miles from a shift point, with two or three LEDS lit up.

I simply could not do without the most basic of instruments - a rev counter, be it needle or LCD.

tristancliffe · 14 Jul 2008, 13:46 (Ref:2250647)

For next year I've narrowed it down to Racepak IQ3 or Race Technology DL1+Dash2. I like the hardware of the IQ3, but the software of R-T is actually a little more flexible, with better display of all laps and sectors, and better handling of X-Y graphs. The R-T's hardware isn't very reliable, with nasty connector blocks, and sensors that fail regularly...

Looked at PI (horrid software, but the hardware is probably great), Motec (awesome in every way, but the price reflects that), Bosch (hmmmm), AIM, ETB ('My First Digital Dashboard' looks)...

Anyone got experience with both the IQ3 and the DL1/Dash2, and can give a comparison in real, clubman terms?

Mr.Jingles · 4 Aug 2008, 15:23 (Ref:2263277)

Just an update: My attempt to get a trial key for the CDS software failed. Oh well, I tried?

roscoe · 21 Aug 2008, 06:51 (Ref:2272532)

MoTeC have a new web site online now, software can be freely downloaded as it always was and should be. There is also a new forum which is proving to be popular.
www.motec.com.au

Hey Dennis, I remember tuning a Corolla GT for you a long time ago when I worked in London.