Sportscar/GT (and Le Mans) Rumours and Repetition

[AGD]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Couldnt Porsche just run a DPG2 Daytona Prototurtle and fit the 2014 regs?

I doubt Porsche is going to take a tube-framer to Le Mans in 2014.

[MitchZ06]

Sarcasm doesn't compute well....

[alexkiller8]

i've read some time ago that from 2014 and on, the lmp1 class will be reserved only for coupè cars, most of these will be cars of manufacter's work teams. The min. weigth should be decreased to 700kg, while the hybrid engines won't be mandatory but surely all manufacters will focus on that. The engine specs should remain the same of the actual ones but surely the diesel engines will be obsolete or banned at all. The lmp2 class should not have too much changings.

I've read too that should come back a sort of groupC spirit:
there will be a determined amount liters of fuel that each car can use during the race, in this way each team may use different strategies like choice between more power but higher consumaption or less power but lower consumaption.
I'm happy about this because finally endurance races will come back to be endurance races and not anymore endless sprint races as happens now.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Sarcasm doesn't compute well....

Oh, ok. I wasn't sure if you were kidding or if you were suffering from temporary insanity so I chose the "nicer" answer! So who wants to Photoshop a Dallara DP with Big Honkin' Holes and a Big Honkin' Fin? Ok, nobody, but you could be looking at the future of sports car racing!

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

i've read some time ago that from 2014 and on, the lmp1 class will be reserved only for coupè cars, most of these will be cars of manufacter's work teams. The min. weigth should be decreased to 700kg, while the hybrid engines won't be mandatory but surely all manufacters will focus on that. The engine specs should remain the same of the actual ones but surely the diesel engines will be obsolete or banned at all. The lmp2 class should not have too much changings.

I've read too that should come back a sort of groupC spirit:
there will be a determined amount liters of fuel that each car can use during the race, in this way each team may use different strategies like choice between more power but higher consumaption or less power but lower consumaption.
I'm happy about this because finally endurance races will come back to be endurance races and not anymore endless sprint races as happens now.

Those are some of the rumors. The point about the class becoming almost entirely manufacturer racing is interesting. Can the privateers get equipment in 2014 that can match the pace and efficiency of what the factory teams will have? It'll be very tough I think. I don't know what the privateers will do and I don't know how the series can hedge their bets if there is a mass (but not complete) manufacturer withdrawal. Still, it could be interesting to see. From the ALMS perspective, will they ignore the consumption formula or will they adopt it too?

[alexkiller8]

but lmp1 IS still now the class of manufacters! in the last 10 years only work teams have won the 24h of le mans and almost all the other intersting events, and when the manufacters have taken part to some champ (ALMS, LMS) then they won flawless also there!
if those rumors will be true, it will happens as happens now: the team works will be however faster and more competitive than the private lmp1 teams.

Beyond competitivity between manufacters/private, i just hope that at least 3 manufacters will fight each other in lmp1, just to avoid what happened during the beginning of '2000 where after the toyota, mercedes, bmw, nissan and porsche retirment, there was a sort of "medieval age" where audi with the r8 that was undefeatable against other little teams who were using old or poorly updated courage or dallara cars.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

but lmp1 IS still now the class of manufacters! in the last 10 years only work teams have won the 24h of le mans and almost all the other intersting events, and when the manufacters have taken part to some champ (ALMS, LMS) then they won flawless also there!
if those rumors will be true, it will happens as happens now: the team works will be however faster and more competitive than the private lmp1 teams.

I think it could be even worse in the future though. Practically essential hybrid systems, mandated coupes, and just the general costs of increased competition. It won't be easy for the P1 privateers.

[alexkiller8]

well... these teams will run in lmp2, or maybe will lease a car from a manufacter.
About ALMS, the champ has already an eye focused on bio-fuel question, IMSA is not forced to use ACO/FIA rules. In my opinion the ALMS will disappear in next years when FLM will finish the homologation and just a couple of prototypes will sign in... for sure will become a GT champ (a sort of IMSA GT) or maybe will join with the GRAND-AM in some way.

[JAG]

In 2014 chassis will be a development of current cars, everyone from Wirth to OAK have a coupe on the drawing board, some, as in the former, may end up badged by manufactuers.

What will be at a premium will be manufactuer developed engines, hence De Chaunac's proposal for manufactuers to supply them ala F1, Honda, Toyota and Nissan* are in the market, we'll have to see what happens with AER/Mazda, likewise if Judd link-up with a manufactuer. If the likes of Peugeot, who back De Chaunac's proposal, start supplying engines, that will be a huge benefit for the sport.

Together with engines you'll need a hybrid system, fortunately this is one area specialist manufactuers are leading the field (well, until we see what manufactuers have), and companies like Zytek, Williams and Flybrid will be wanting a return on their investment by selling systems to customers.

http://www.lemans.org/en/races/fia-w...oice_5770.html

*P1 version via Zytek must be on the cards?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

In 2014 chassis will be a development of current cars, everyone from Wirth to OAK have a coupe on the drawing board, some, as in the former, may end up badged by manufactuers.

Yeah, but the fact that drawn up plans have not hit the track yet shows the difficulty that privateer teams are already facing as it is. Plus, just because a car is on Wirth or Oreca's hard drive does not mean those chassis are ready for primetime. Look at Audi. It looks like they'll have 2 new cars and 2 major revisions in a span of 4 seasons and who knows if the fourth time will be the charm even. The third certainly wasn't. How much does that cost? And look at Peugeot's early season testing problems.

Together with engines you'll need a hybrid system, fortunately this is one area specialist manufactuers are leading the field (well, until we see what manufactuers have), and companies like Zytek, Williams and Flybrid will be wanting a return on their investment by selling systems to customers.

The Flybrid and the Zytek options, at least so far, look more like theoretical experiments rather than anything resembling a competitive option. I know Zytek knows how to build good hybrid systems, but it takes money. The Tokai hybrid actually seemed to be the most promising of 2011 LMP hybrids. I don't know what's going to happen with that technology.

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

well... these teams will run in lmp2, or maybe will lease a car from a manufacter.

About ALMS, the champ has already an eye focused on bio-fuel question, IMSA is not forced to use ACO/FIA rules. In my opinion the ALMS will disappear in next years when FLM will finish the homologation and just a couple of prototypes will sign in... for sure will become a GT champ (a sort of IMSA GT) or maybe will join with the GRAND-AM in some way.

I'm guessing IMSA could keep extending the FLM09's homologation indefinitely if they want to. It could be like the Dallara 2003 IRL chassis! Obviously, I hope LMPC goes away ASAP, but I won't hold my breath waiting for that. As for P1 privateers going to P2 or the ALMS, well, an argument could be made that they should be doing that now. I guess it is a matter of pride or something. By 2014 or 2015, pride may have to take a back seat. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it could become one if/when the bottom falls out and there are only a couple of P1 teams total. I'm sure privateers will come out of the woodwork if that happens, but it might not be pretty for a while.

[JAG]

The new cars are still on the hard drives, well, because they are for 2014, current HPD's and OAK's still look pretty good, I think OAK have suprised everyone with the development of the car, and pushing ahead with new customers.

On the hybrid side Zytek's latest system has yet to get a decent run, I think they are also working with Super, and no doubt others, while the Flybrid system has worked well for Porsche.

I don't know how things worked in the past but it seems the ACO work closely with all the main players years in advance of a new car hitting the track, perhaps we should stop being suprised when a flood of announcements come forth.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

The new cars are still on the hard drives, well, because they are for 2014, current HPD's and OAK's still look pretty good, I think OAK have suprised everyone with the development of the car, and pushing ahead with new customers.

The coupes probably could have been on the track in 2011 if the money arrived. I don't think they are sitting around waiting for 2014. The cars will run when the money arrives. The OAK and HPD (at least as P1 ACO cars) probably only have 2 more seasons left before they will need to be replaced with coupes. There could be some grandfathering, but I doubt the grandfathering will be privateer friendly. As for the OAK, I'd like to see them run an HPD V8. I don't know if HPD would be interested in that or if OAK would be interested in it, but I'd like to see what it can do head-to-head against the ARX-03a.

On the hybrid side Zytek's latest system has yet to get a decent run, I think they are also working with Super, and no doubt others, while the Flybrid system has worked well for Porsche.

Porsche = money
Hope = hopeful for money

I don't know how things worked in the past but it seems the ACO work closely with all the main players years in advance of a new car hitting the track, perhaps we should stop being suprised when a flood of announcements come forth.

Be that as it may, we're talking about privateers. P2 is P2 and that's why teams are committing to it, but P1 is a bit more hairy at the moment.

[alexkiller8]

for manufacters like mercedes not involved in LMS/ALMS/WEC a sort of engine supplying is possible only as "recycle" of engines planned and developed from other competitions, as happnede this year with the RV8LM toyota or VK45 nissan sgt500 engines. Is really hard to think that a manufacter will project and develope a brand new engine just to selling it to private teams! A think like this can be done just by zytek or judd who are companies that have their main business in this.
Then a situation like the early '90 where f1 engines were shared by prototypes (because there was not groupC anymore) is impossible now.

[Spyderman]

Perhaps I misunderstood, but I was under the impression that your point was that they were the same entity.
Anyway, as I have mentioned before, there will be technology and platform sharing for some projects (road going) when they make sense and are beneficial to both companies and the Group.
For information purposes, it is important to clarify that the Porsche -VAG deal involves Porsche SE and not directly Porsche AG (the actual car manufacturer).
"The Porsche Automobile Holding SE is responsible for the stock of the operating subsidiary, Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG, and for the investments in Volkswagen AG. With the new structure, Porsche ensures that the autonomy and independence of the traditional Stuttgart-based company remain fully protected. This is the main purpose of separating holding and operating activities. At the same time, the holding also represents a single company responsible for the management of stock."- Porsche

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Perhaps I misunderstood, but I was under the impression that your point was that they were the same entity.
Anyway, as I have mentioned before, there will be technology and platform sharing for some projects (road going) when they make sense and are beneficial to both companies and the Group.
For information purposes, it is important to clarify that the Porsche -VAG deal involves Porsche SE and not directly Porsche AG (the actual car manufacturer).
"The Porsche Automobile Holding SE is responsible for the stock of the operating subsidiary, Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG, and for the investments in Volkswagen AG. With the new structure, Porsche ensures that the autonomy and independence of the traditional Stuttgart-based company remain fully protected. This is the main purpose of separating holding and operating activities. At the same time, the holding also represents a single company responsible for the management of stock."- Porsche

Thanks for clearing that up.......
Apart from the racing side of things being separate entities from the manufacturing and sales of their cars, what about the two Porsche employees who are in the inner sanctum of Audi racing at the moment, ie, Messrs Bernhard and Dumas. Surely they must be sharing some of their knowledge with their primary employer, and I am not suggesting anything underhanded, just a sharing of the know-how between the fellow VAG team mates. Even with Audi's talk of their future plans, I hold the belief that they will be leaving LMP racing before Porsche return in 2014.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

Thanks for clearing that up.......
Apart from the racing side of things being separate entities from the manufacturing and sales of their cars, what about the two Porsche employees who are in the inner sanctum of Audi racing at the moment, ie, Messrs Bernhard and Dumas. Surely they must be sharing some of their knowledge with their primary employer, and I am not suggesting anything underhanded, just a sharing of the know-how between the fellow VAG team mates. Even with Audi's talk of their future plans, I hold the belief that they will be leaving LMP racing before Porsche return in 2014.

My apologies if my explanation is confusing, but a look at the current holding structure (my next post) should make it less so.

Bernhard and Dumas are being loaned by Porsche to Audi at the request of Audi and the drivers.
Secondly : it is not like Porsche has absolutely no know-how in LMP racing. Not that long ago, their LMP2 was giving the LMP1's (Diesels) something to think about on the short circuits.
It is also rumored that Porsche let the Audi engineers have a "good look" around their aborted LM2000 car before Audi developed their R8 as part of the agreement for VAG co-developing the Cayenne, This took place way before the Porsche-VAG tie in. Those that know Porsche and its history, will know that there has always been strong ties and deals with VAG. (
shared parts on the 356, Porsche 914, Cayenne, the Porsche+Audi American commercial deal, etc)
Also - When it was agreed that Dumas and Bernhard be loaned to Audi, there were no plans for a Porsche LMP1 entry.
Finally, I suspect the 2014 rules may render much of their "gained" know how obsolete.
There are always drivers changing teams in racing. This is nothing new.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

My apologies if my explanation is confusing, but a look at the current holding structure (my next post) should make it less so.

Bernhard and Dumas are being loaned by Porsche to Audi at the request of Audi and the drivers.
Secondly : it is not like Porsche has absolutely no know-how in LMP racing. Not that long ago, their LMP2 was giving the LMP1's (Diesels) something to think about on the short circuits.
It is also rumored that Porsche let the Audi engineers have a "good look" around their aborted LM2000 car before Audi developed their R8 as part of the agreement for VAG co-developing the Cayenne, This took place way before the Porsche-VAG tie in. Those that know Porsche and its history, will know that there has always been strong ties and deals with VAG. (
shared parts on the 356, Porsche 914, Cayenne, the Porsche+Audi American commercial deal, etc)
Also - When it was agreed that Dumas and Bernhard be loaned to Audi, there were no plans for a Porsche LMP1 entry.
Finally, I suspect the 2014 rules may render much of their "gained" know how obsolete.
There are always drivers changing teams in racing. This is nothing new.

The R8 was actually ahead of the Porsche LMP2000, in the design progress, so Audi couldn't have gained so much, if the rumor is true.
However you are right with Audi Porsche sharing many ties, and the LMP / SUV deal is a good example on (almost) "in-house" regulation.
The Joest team is also a strong tie in between Audi and Porsche, and none the less Tom and Allan who secured Porsche it's last two overall victories at Le Mans.

But again so much depends which team Porsche choses (or not) to collaborate with, if they will use a manufacture for the chassis (Dallara!?), Drivers and so on.
I do not see that much sharing of technology between Audi and Porsche, as they might decide to run two different technologies (Diesel and Petrol!?), to take advantage of the any regulation preferences (like some say diesel has).

[Spyderman]

Here is the current holding structure:

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Here is the current holding structure:

My point had nothing to do with the road cars its was about the P1 projects. It makes no sense for them not to share some costs collectively until the point comes where the designs diverge to represent their respective brands. This could apply in manufacturing, purchasing, marketing, operations, personnel and ultimately strategy.

It remains to be seen (if we ever do - because they are unlikely to admit it) how much sharing goes on but I cant believe there will be none

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Mal

My point had nothing to do with the road cars its was about the P1 projects. It makes no sense for them not to share some costs collectively until the point comes where the designs diverge to represent their respective brands. This could apply in manufacturing, purchasing, marketing, operations, personnel and ultimately strategy.

It remains to be seen (if we ever do - because they are unlikely to admit it) how much sharing goes on but I cant believe there will be none

One of the only examples i can think of where two brands of the same "company" raced against each other is the Peugeot vs. Citroen in the WRC. When that happened nothing was shared, and they ran as two completley seperete teams.
I see this more likely with Porsche and Audi, than a cooperation.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by CTD

One of the only examples i can think of where two brands of the same "company" raced against each other is the Peugeot vs. Citroen in the WRC. When that happened nothing was shared, and they ran as two completley seperete teams.
I see this more likely with Porsche and Audi, than a cooperation.

Bentley and Audi
Maserati and Ferrari

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Bentley and Audi
Maserati and Ferrari

The Audi team retracted when Bentley went full swing.
And there was no real secrecy about the Bentley victory being "manufactured".

The Maserati - Ferrari i don't know

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Bentley and Audi
Maserati and Ferrari

SEAT and Skoda in WRC - 1999 ish

[Simmi]

Harald Primat leaving Aston Martin and heading to Rebellion for 2012 according to John Dagys. Points towards the WEC programme that we all assumed Rebellion would be doing. 1 or 2 cars is the question?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Harald Primat leaving Aston Martin and heading to Rebellion for 2012 according to John Dagys. Points towards the WEC programme that we all assumed Rebellion would be doing. 1 or 2 cars is the question?

A driver like Primat should be able the score a Factory seat. Could Rebellion be traning grounds for Toyota?, or Primat just REALLY upset with the Amr team?

[Félix]

Originally Posted by CTD

A driver like Primat should be able the score a Factory seat. Could Rebellion be traning grounds for Toyota?, or Primat just REALLY upset with the Amr team?

Daddy's checkbook can; and magically a new sticker will appear on the Rebellion cars. We don't really know how fast he is, but it would be widely known if he was something special or had set the world alight in lower formula. Apparently he's a nice person, but I seem to remember he's the only driver who spun/damaged? the AMR-One during its very short time on track.