MSNZ & TMC - 'Wheels start to come off'

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by RogerH

You seem to have overlooked the fact that the governing body being involved in the commercial promotion of the sport either wholly themselves or as a majority shareholder in a corporate entity hasn't worked.
The template used in both examples is essentially the same and has failed in recent times with the demise of TMC/MPL. This will cost member clubs cold hard cash as MSNZ is an unsecured creditor in MPL. Competitors also suffered after the failure of Global Promotions and were levied a one-off $50 addition to their competition licence fee that they still pay today (albeit for different purposes).
The MSNZ promotion of Tier 1 is highly likely to cost member clubs as despite MSNZ statements that they will not fund Tier 1, they are committing resources that effectively constitute funding. In addition there are issues like the recently announced Tier 1 Series guide that is being published in a run of 20,000 copies - who is paying for this and who picks up the tab if enough advertisers don't come to the party or enough copies aren't sold to cover costs?
Even if a club or private entity runs a championship event there is still cash going back to the circuits through track hire etc and to MSNZ through the fee structures but without the risk associated with the history of failure under the TMC type template.

Roger,whilst i have supported some of your dialogue, you expect answers to certain questions in a public forum, that the public need not be privy to, but as your record is stuck, the tide has turned and you're in the gun......

if a private entity was to be wholly in charge of ticketing and promotion, can you guarantee the sport would be better off ??, i don't believe so as entry/gate fees would rise dramatically to ensure there is no loss to the promotion, at least with the status quo, the competitors/enthusiasts only have themselve to blame if profit back to the governing body are marginal?

does private entity promotion put money back into encouraging "new blood' ?

was the $50 increase not created by the the constant appeals and subsequent costs by certain teams at the forefront of NZST after being hauled over the coals for technical irregularities?

does TAOCCOC still want to run events without MSNZ permits and fees and use their own indemnities etc?

grab your shovel and either dig up/out or carry on filling your barrow.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

I am genuinely pleased to see people from MSNZ coming onto this forum under their own names and answering questions, thanks Bill, Brian et al for that. We also know of a couple of others who post not using their real names, although their posts have been few and far between of late..

so, are you agreeing that a fair amount of innuendo and lies were created by faceless posters who have been silenced ??

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

What needs to happen now is that MSNZ need to listen to what is being said, and concentrate on being a regulatory body and also promoting safety, supplying officials and promoting the sport in a non-specific way wherever possible by giving full support to EVERYONE who wants to either race a car, run a series or run a circuit..

MSNZ isn't only about CIRCUIT RACING, and this is a major part of the current problem. the selfish tar-babies truely believe they are the ONLY aspect of motorsort that matter, and want everything their way. take your blinkers off, as MSNZ also promote and run many other disciplines.

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

This is NOT the time to be taking sides, organizing your own series in direct competition with another or looking after whatever is left of some people's patches.

It is the time to move forward for the good of the sport, and that may mean making some hard choices and seeing past the egos that inevitably are prevalent in the top echelons of the sport, and asking yourselves, "What is going to be best for the sport?" .

as we know, battle lines were drawn when NZST started, and the supportors signed up enmasse to slag off anything that MSNZ have ever done, and blame them for all the faults in the sport, many of which were created inside their own ranks through egos and the "C" word

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

Roger,whilst i have supported some of your dialogue, you expect answers to certain questions in a public forum, that the public need not be privy to, but as your record is stuck, the tide has turned and you're in the gun......

if a private entity was to be wholly in charge of ticketing and promotion, can you guarantee the sport would be better off ??, i don't believe so as entry/gate fees would rise dramatically to ensure there is no loss to the promotion, at least with the status quo, the competitors/enthusiasts only have themselve to blame if profit back to the governing body are marginal?

does private entity promotion put money back into encouraging "new blood' ?

was the $50 increase not created by the the constant appeals and subsequent costs by certain teams at the forefront of NZST after being hauled over the coals for technical irregularities?

does TAOCCOC still want to run events without MSNZ permits and fees and use their own indemnities etc?

grab your shovel and either dig up/out or carry on filling your barrow.

Well Joe, I have read your post several times but I'm not quite sure if I totally understand what you are actually getting at.

Firstly, I don't know what you are referring to in respect of questions in a public forum that the public need not be privy to. MSNZ is not a private entity - it is an incorporated society with a wide and diverse membership and even a greater exposure to competitors who have a vested interest as they generate a significant portion of the fee income on which MSNZ relies.

I don't think I have ever said that private companies should necessarily be running Tier 1 - I think you have just assumed this. All I have been saying is that MSNZ should not be involved in the commercial aspects. There are a number of options such letting clubs run some championship events or series coordinating groups run them or even not running Tier 1. In the right structure private entities could also run championship events but it is not necessarily a case of only two options (MSNZ or private companies).

I also believe that the entry/gate fees are set by the market irrespective of who is running an event. If the price is too high then competitors or spectators will vote with their feet and they are really ambivalent to who is putting on the event - it is as simple as are they getting value for money for the product offered.

As far as I'm aware the $50 surcharge on competition licences was invoked way before the ST saw the light of day and had nothing to do with them.

I don't know where you have got the idea that TACCOC want to run events independently of MSNZ - it has never been suggested.

[Member CCC]

Originally Posted by RogerH

Well Joe, I have read your post several times but I'm not quite sure if I totally understand what you are actually getting at.

Firstly, I don't know what you are referring to in respect of questions in a public forum that the public need not be privy to. MSNZ is not a private entity - it is an incorporated society with a wide and diverse membership and even a greater exposure to competitors who have a vested interest as they generate a significant portion of the fee income on which MSNZ relies.

I don't think I have ever said that private companies should necessarily be running Tier 1 - I think you have just assumed this. All I have been saying is that MSNZ should not be involved in the commercial aspects. There are a number of options such letting clubs run some championship events or series coordinating groups run them or even not running Tier 1. In the right structure private entities could also run championship events but it is not necessarily a case of only two options (MSNZ or private companies).

I also believe that the entry/gate fees are set by the market irrespective of who is running an event. If the price is too high then competitors or spectators will vote with their feet and they are really ambivalent to who is putting on the event - it is as simple as are they getting value for money for the product offered.

As far as I'm aware the $50 surcharge on competition licences was invoked way before the ST saw the light of day and had nothing to do with them.

I don't know where you have got the idea that TACCOC want to run events independently of MSNZ - it has never been suggested.

Roger my understanding of the whole motorsport levy on licenses was introduced with the demise of the private promoter Global. At this time Motorsport NZ and the clubs had no other option than to start the promotional company to protect the sport and continue to promote the pinnacle of motorsport in NZ. Ironically this may not suit your classic community but how would we ever see the next Hulme, Amon or McLaren without the pinnacle of motorsport being promoted. As I see it today we have Dixon, Murphy, Coulthard, Van Gisburgen, the late Jason Richards all products of NZ Motorsport and Hartley, Evans, Stanaway and Cassidy all poised on the world stage to bring NZ's next F1 driver. How would this have happened if the sport didn't take over the roll of promoting motorsport? This also ensured that all of the circuits/clubs had a major events happening at their circuit every season without being screwed over by private promoters! You are very quick to bag MSNZ & TMC yet the model did work for a number of years. From my understanding Motorsport NZ received significant revenue from the Tier 1 series in fact I understand that TMC was the sport's largest customer providing in excess of 300k a year in taxes for the sport but of course you neglect to research and state these facts! Without a doubt we need to understand the failings of TMC and MSNZ's future plan. My own thought on contributing factors to the state motorsport is in at the moment has a lot to do with ego's and personalities splitting the sport apart. All sports are under pressure just read the paper Rowing NZ Otago Rugby Union... Not a great time to go blowing the sport that we love apart! Your political commentary on a public forum is hardly helpful to rebuilding the sport. You seem more determined to run the sport down and putting a negative spin on anything around MSNZ. How about helping to come with positive ideas to help rebuild motorsport instead of sounding like a broken record???

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Member CCC

Roger my understanding of the whole motorsport levy on licenses was introduced with the demise of the private promoter Global. At this time Motorsport NZ and the clubs had no other option than to start the promotional company to protect the sport and continue to promote the pinnacle of motorsport in NZ. Ironically this may not suit your classic community but how would we ever see the next Hulme, Amon or McLaren without the pinnacle of motorsport being promoted. As I see it today we have Dixon, Murphy, Coulthard, Van Gisburgen, the late Jason Richards all products of NZ Motorsport and Hartley, Evans, Stanaway and Cassidy all poised on the world stage to bring NZ's next F1 driver. How would this have happened if the sport didn't take over the roll of promoting motorsport? This also ensured that all of the circuits/clubs had a major events happening at their circuit every season without being screwed over by private promoters! You are very quick to bag MSNZ & TMC yet the model did work for a number of years. From my understanding Motorsport NZ received significant revenue from the Tier 1 series in fact I understand that TMC was the sport's largest customer providing in excess of 300k a year in taxes for the sport but of course you neglect to research and state these facts! Without a doubt we need to understand the failings of TMC and MSNZ's future plan. My own thought on contributing factors to the state motorsport is in at the moment has a lot to do with ego's and personalities splitting the sport apart. All sports are under pressure just read the paper Rowing NZ Otago Rugby Union... Not a great time to go blowing the sport that we love apart! Your political commentary on a public forum is hardly helpful to rebuilding the sport. You seem more determined to run the sport down and putting a negative spin on anything around MSNZ. How about helping to come with positive ideas to help rebuild motorsport instead of sounding like a broken record???

Thanks for the confirmation regarding the introduction of the licence levy.

Part of the structure of TMC was an explicit position that no profits or related financial benefits could flow from TMC to it's major shareholder MSNZ. I understand this was due to a tax position in respect of amateur sporting bodies being non-profit (and therefore non-tax) organisations. On that basis to be legally compliant the only amounts that could flow out of TMC to MSNZ were those fees and charges that would normally apply to a race meeting irrespective of who was promoting it.

Yes I do "bag" MSNZ regarding its involvement in commercial motor sport and I make no apologies for this. However, that does not mean that I "bag" MSNZ in general - I am on record saying that MSNZ does a lot of things right.

You also clearly have no idea of the assistance I have given to MSNZ and the sport over the years including redrafting manual amendments and in recent times putting in over 80 hours of work doing a report on the MSNZ Constitution at the request of the MSNZ Executive. I have also put in countless hours on club, trustee and series co-ordination matters. Additionally, with respect to encouraging up and coming drivers I have anonymously financially supported a number of young drivers including in Tier 1 classes. Also I run and race number of race cars and have a significant investment in the sport. I don't think this sounds like someone who is determined to run down the sport or blow it up.

[socram]

Smokin' Joe, I think that your personal attack is totally undeserved. You have no idea who supports young drivers anonymously and I would suggest that it is private people like P J and Colin Giltrap and their various supporters who pour the most money into supporting young drivers, rather than MSNZ. As a classic series, we too have dipped into our reserves to throw money in to support a young single seater driver who we believe in.

At a commercial level, the company that I was formerly part owner of until April 2010 has also supported several young drivers with cash as well as product - and that includes disciplines as diverse as speedway, rally and circuit.

MSNZ is set up as an administrative body to co-ordinate various aspects of the sport. Whether you are a karter, racer or rally member is immaterial but it appears that the tar babies as you call them are the ones who seem to be willing to be counted. Let's be honest, there aren't really that many actively contributing to this forum but those that do are the ones who have a passion for the sport and just want things to be run for the benefit of all.

Most sports organisations appear to ignore the grass roots competitors and concentrate only on the favoured few.

I support Roger's contribution to the sport and to this message board and if you believe I am being synchophantic, I am not, as TACCOC, Roger and I do not agree at all on various issues that affect our area of the sport. Roger and TACCOC are fairly purist to the classic and historic scene. I am a pragmatist, but I understand and support their stance but I do not expect them to support mine as we are aiming at a different group.

MSNZ and TACCOC have worked together for years and continue to do so.

That they do, with the Historic Commission basically sharing the TACCOC stance, means that pragmatists have difficulty with certain aspects of the commission, which gets to be translated as being anti MSNZ by some people.

It is not anti MSNZ, it is a plea that if they are representing us, then they need to represent all of us, not just those with the same view as those on the commission. If the current T & C rules for example, do not encompass the wishes of the majority of racers, but there is a schedule K for purists, then it is no wonder that many non schedule K racers do not support either the commission or its rulings.

One commission member has asked to be removed from our mailing list as quite frankly, he does doesn't really want to hear the views of our series members, even though those views are as a result of a poll or polls and not the writer's personal view. So what do we do when the people who are elected by a few clubs, don't want to listen?

Anti MSNZ? I think not. Is MSNZ (or pockets of them) anti the very people who they are supposed represent? You decide.

[Evomike]

Originally Posted by Brian Budd

It was unanimous. As I don't know who you are, your relationship with MSNZ or other associated entities, I am not prepared to make any further comment on this matter. There is nothing to hide but it is difficult when individuals don't disclose their true identity to know the extent of the information they should be privy to.

So my earlier assumptions that the reason/s for liquidation were that MPL were unable to pay their bills and/or there is something to hide may in fact be correct and that maybe it was done to preempt one of the creditors doing the same and therefore a liquidator who might actually scrutinise transactions be appointed.

I am not saying anything is wrong, but the reluctance to be open about the goings on does not help the situation.

Where did the funds come from to pay the liquidator?

Can anyone from the shareholder clubs of MPL confirm they signed the shareholders resolution to put MPL into liquidation?

Mike McDonald

[Bill Brown]

Originally Posted by RogerH

Thanks for the confirmation regarding the introduction of the licence levy.

Part of the structure of TMC was an explicit position that no profits or related financial benefits could flow from TMC to it's major shareholder MSNZ. I understand this was due to a tax position in respect of amateur sporting bodies being non-profit (and therefore non-tax) organisations. On that basis to be legally compliant the only amounts that could flow out of TMC to MSNZ were those fees and charges that would normally apply to a race meeting irrespective of who was promoting it.

Yes I do "bag" MSNZ regarding its involvement in commercial motor sport and I make no apologies for this. However, that does not mean that I "bag" MSNZ in general - I am on record saying that MSNZ does a lot of things right.

You also clearly have no idea of the assistance I have given to MSNZ and the sport over the years including redrafting manual amendments and in recent times putting in over 80 hours of work doing a report on the MSNZ Constitution at the request of the MSNZ Executive. I have also put in countless hours on club, trustee and series co-ordination matters. Additionally, with respect to encouraging up and coming drivers I have anonymously financially supported a number of young drivers including in Tier 1 classes. Also I run and race number of race cars and have a significant investment in the sport. I don't think this sounds like someone who is determined to run down the sport or blow it up.

Roger
Once again please check your facts as regards to the one off competitor levy.

It was nothing to do with Global Sports Promotions. It was paid to Motor Race NZ and it was paid back to the MSNZ by TMC. What the MSNZ did with the money you would need to check with them.

As for MSNZ only getting normal levies etc from TMC events what about the exclusive rights to NZ championship fee that TMC paid to MSNZ

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

As for MSNZ only getting normal levies etc from TMC events what about the exclusive rights to NZ championship fee that TMC paid to MSNZ

I think thats only one side of the story Bill. You need to balance this with the "administrative grant" that MSNZ paid to TMC each year - this cash "donation" to TMC was initially meant to be a one-off grant to assist TMC set itself up but it continued for many years and came to a substantial amount (I added it all up a while ago and it came to a figure approaching $1 million over the years). The justification by MSNZ that I was told, was that administrative grant came back in the form championship fees so it is possible that the NZ Championship fees paid by TMC to MSNZ may well have been neutralised by the "grant" going the other way from MSNZ to TMC.

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

Roger
Once again please check your facts as regards to the one off competitor levy.

It was nothing to do with Global Sports Promotions. It was paid to Motor Race NZ and it was paid back to the MSNZ by TMC. What the MSNZ did with the money you would need to check with them.

Bill, Member CCC seems to also think the competitor levy was to do with Global Sports Promotion - see post #1029 :

my understanding of the whole motorsport levy on licenses was introduced with the demise of the private promoter Global. At this time Motorsport NZ and the clubs had no other option than to start the promotional company to protect the sport and continue to promote the pinnacle of motorsport in NZ.

[Bill Brown]

Originally Posted by RogerH

I think thats only one side of the story Bill. You need to balance this with the "administrative grant" that MSNZ paid to TMC each year - this cash "donation" to TMC was initially meant to be a one-off grant to assist TMC set itself up but it continued for many years and came to a substantial amount (I added it all up a while ago and it came to a figure approaching $1 million over the years). The justification by MSNZ that I was told, was that administrative grant came back in the form championship fees so it is possible that the NZ Championship fees paid by TMC to MSNZ may well have been neutralised by the "grant" going the other way from MSNZ to TMC.

MSNZ have always called it a grant which has always stuck in my throat. The reality is that it is a fee the sport paid to a promotions company (TMC) it have its championships promoted. You get nothing for nothing in the real world.

There was also a "fee" paid for promoting the rally championship.

Rally NZ was also bailed out by way of a licence Levy. Not sure whether it was ever paid back.

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

MSNZ have always called it a grant which has always stuck in my throat. The reality is that it is a fee the sport paid to a promotions company (TMC) it have its championships promoted. You get nothing for nothing in the real world.

There was also a "fee" paid for promoting the rally championship.

Rally NZ was also bailed out by way of a licence Levy. Not sure whether it was ever paid back.

Yes, it does all seem a bit silly Bill - from what you say, TMC pays MSNZ a fee for having the right to promote MSNZ Championship events and MSNZ pays TMC a fee for getting them to promote their MSNZ Championship events .......

[Bill Brown]

Originally Posted by RogerH

Yes, it does all seem a bit silly Bill - from what you say, TMC pays MSNZ a fee for having the right to promote MSNZ Championship events and MSNZ pays TMC a fee for getting them to promote their MSNZ Championship events .......

life is fairly silly sometimes especially in the silly season.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by RogerH

As far as I'm aware the $50 surcharge on competition licences was invoked way before the ST saw the light of day and had nothing to do with them.

sorry bud, you misread me.

i was always of the impression, a major bump in licence fees was due to certian appeals over technical infractions by people who are currently at the forefront of the NZST camp whilst racing in NZV8s ??
MSNZ had to spend large sums of money in court to defend their technical regulations, and i was told at the time of the increase that this was the reasoning.

[flyingduck]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

MSNZ have always called it a grant which has always stuck in my throat. The reality is that it is a fee the sport paid to a promotions company (TMC) it have its championships promoted. You get nothing for nothing in the real world.

There was also a "fee" paid for promoting the rally championship.

Rally NZ was also bailed out by way of a licence Levy. Not sure whether it was ever paid back.

I think bill you may find rally paid it back.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by socram

Smokin' Joe, I think that your personal attack is totally undeserved. You have no idea who supports young drivers anonymously and I would suggest that it is private people like P J and Colin Giltrap and their various supporters who pour the most money into supporting young drivers, rather than MSNZ. As a classic series, we too have dipped into our reserves to throw money in to support a young single seater driver who we believe in.

maybe re-read, then have a crack.
the comment you refer to is regarding having a private entity promoting motorsport in NZ, as opposed to MSNZ, who you all seem to believe should butt out and only work on governance. if all the promotional/event profits are in someone elses pocket, will there be an assistance/encouragement at 'grass roots' level................? doubt it.

the biggest issue, it that everyone appears too narrow-minded to remember that circuit racing is only PART of the sport.

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by Club racer

There were 110 'citizens' racing at Hampton Downs at the weekend - amongst pretty much all of the people I spoke to the conversation was dominated by MSNZ's failings. But you have to get to the grass roots meetings to understand that, not listen to Revhead.

I have just spent the past week on the epay Silver Rally and never heard a word mentioned about perceived MSNZ failings.

Funny world isn't it. Maybe the rally guys and girls were out enjoying themselves and all that the sport has to offer.

[Evomike]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

I have just spent the past week on the epay Silver Rally and never heard a word mentioned about perceived MSNZ failings.

Funny world isn't it. Maybe the rally guys and girls were out enjoying themselves and all that the sport has to offer.

Funny world for sure, Rallying IS talking about what is going on at MSNZ, at the highest levels in the sport I am told there is discussion and condemnation of the current impersonation of a an ostrich that MSNZ are doing...

[sollitt]

Mike, absolutely there are rally people as concerned about present and past goings on at MSNZ as there are from any other code.

However, like Carl, I wondered about comments around 'wholesale discontent' within competitor and club numbers. Who are these people and what are they really unhappy about?

Unfortunately negativism is contagious but, as with anything viral, those that contract the affliction are usually totally oblivious as to it's source.
I would suspect that many who claim to be unhappy have joined the bandwagon ... but they have no idea why.

As an example, recently a club level rally competitor informed me, in a quite derogatory tone, that MSNZ "did nothing for him".
When asked what it was that he wanted MSNZ to do for him, he had no answer.

Totally oblivious to the things MSNZ does do for him, this bloke had simply bought in to the rhetoric and having been told he ought be unhappy with his lot, he was.
I suspect many of the discontented will be in this category.

[Evomike]

Originally Posted by sollitt

Mike, absolutely there are rally people as concerned about present and past goings on at MSNZ as there are from any other code.

However, like Carl, I wondered about comments around 'wholesale discontent' within competitor and club numbers. Who are these people and what are they really unhappy about?

Unfortunately negativism is contagious but, as with anything viral, those that contract the affliction are usually totally oblivious as to it's source.
I would suspect that many who claim to be unhappy have joined the bandwagon ... but they have no idea why.

As an example, recently a club level rally competitor informed me, in a quite derogatory tone, that MSNZ "did nothing for him".
When asked what it was that he wanted MSNZ to do for him, he had no answer.

Totally oblivious to the things MSNZ does do for him, this bloke had simply bought in to the rhetoric and having been told he ought be unhappy with his lot, he was.
I suspect many of the discontented will be in this category.

Thats the whole throw the baby out with the bathwater theory, I did not say, and neither are the people that have discussed it with me saying dump the whole of MSNZ its stuffed, what they are worried about, and rightly so, is the possible actions of a few that appear to have had a major impact on MPL and MSNZ, it is a fact that MPL has been placed into liquidation owing money, this is not disputed, a lot of questions have been asked about a number of things by many people, media included, and to date the answers have not been forthcoming to all of the questions asked, we have had press releases put out saying there are a certain number of cars that deposits have been paid for, eventually after it was rubbished finally an admission that the original release was wrong. Shaun Summerfield quiered the realease at the time and was attacked by MSNZ as being biased, and there was calls for his head. Now that it transpires he was right not to run the story and to question it there has been no public apology. Then we have the debacle over the Suzuki series....this is not people blindly following what other people say, the people I have spoken to are highly intelligent, successful people in their own right, to claim they have joined the bandwagon would be a massive insult to these people and what they do for the sport and what they do and have achieved in life. Its true there will be some out there who really have no idea, but I was responding to Southern Mans post that all was good in Rally Land...Whilst it is true to say that MSNZ doesn't just represent circuit racing, I think it is fair that they are put under the microscope, MPL has failed, sure Super Tourers has broken away and there has been law suits which are not resolved and there are many who dont like Mark Petch. I would suggest that this plays a big part in why so many are divided on the NZV8 vs ST debate judging by the comments on here, at the end of the day the last NZV8 Championship was a disaster and look I can say I've picked a side by sponsoring Boothy in the Supertourers, but, I wasnt a convert prior to the start of ST's, but after watching, and then not watching the NZV8s I decided what did I have to loose.
There are some seriously good people in MSNZ and they do a lot of good, however, there is some serious problems that need to be looked at, and we need to get serious about what is happening with NZ's "Premier" Circuit racing series.

[Evomike]

Originally Posted by sollitt

Mike, absolutely there are rally people as concerned about present and past goings on at MSNZ as there are from any other code.

However, like Carl, I wondered about comments around 'wholesale discontent' within competitor and club numbers. Who are these people and what are they really unhappy about?

Unfortunately negativism is contagious but, as with anything viral, those that contract the affliction are usually totally oblivious as to it's source.
I would suspect that many who claim to be unhappy have joined the bandwagon ... but they have no idea why.

As an example, recently a club level rally competitor informed me, in a quite derogatory tone, that MSNZ "did nothing for him".
When asked what it was that he wanted MSNZ to do for him, he had no answer.

Totally oblivious to the things MSNZ does do for him, this bloke had simply bought in to the rhetoric and having been told he ought be unhappy with his lot, he was.
I suspect many of the discontented will be in this category.

So I ask you this, are you happy with how MPL has been handled? Are you happy with the direction the premier racing categories are being taken by MSNZ?

[socram]

Having run a race series for 17 years, I am fairly sure that 9/10 drivers just want someone else to organise things for them, hold their hands at times and just want to go out and enjoy themselves. That 9 out of 10, only really grizzle when they find that the red tape affects them directly, or rules are drafted and installed without them having had any input (especially when those rules appear to be somewhat misguided, considering the low level at which they compete).

Many get in touch with me with a MSNZ related query, then shrug their shoulders or shake their heads and just carry one, but they are not going to raise their heads above the parapet, regardless.

Changing roll over tube dimensions by a minor percentage; having to replace the fire extinguisher bracket to a double clip, when for 40 years, a single clip was deemed adequate, are not majors in the general scheme of things but the majority of licence holders will just do as they are told. They accept that we have a governing body but in many cases, are powerless to challenge.

Only those who have a broader responsibility for others, be they club committees, circuit owners, race organisers (or promoters) and series convenors jump up and down, as they generally do so, not for personal reasons (unless otherwise stated) but they do it on behalf of others.

The general licence holders should not be deemed satisfied or dissatisfied, just because they don't jump up and down or add to a forum. There are plenty of lurkers on this and other forums who will be either nodding their heads or shaking their heads at every single post - and even more who have no idea what is going on.

They enter, turn up, compete, go home - and that is all they ever want to do. If I said I was levying every single driver $20 to cover my time, now I am on a more restricted income, they'd happily pay up - just as long as the series fulfils their needs and they considered they were getting value for money. What MSNZ is doing in areas outside the pure governance side is probably of no interst to most, but without the searching questions and challenges of others, no doubt we'd be taken advantage of.

[NickL]

Originally Posted by socram

Having run a race series for 17 years, I am fairly sure that 9/10 drivers just want someone else to organise things for them, hold their hands at times and just want to go out and enjoy themselves. That 9 out of 10, only really grizzle when they find that the red tape affects them directly, or rules are drafted and installed without them having had any input (especially when those rules appear to be somewhat misguided, considering the low level at which they compete).

Many get in touch with me with a MSNZ related query, then shrug their shoulders or shake their heads and just carry one, but they are not going to raise their heads above the parapet, regardless.

Changing roll over tube dimensions by a minor percentage; having to replace the fire extinguisher bracket to a double clip, when for 40 years, a single clip was deemed adequate, are not majors in the general scheme of things but the majority of licence holders will just do as they are told. They accept that we have a governing body but in many cases, are powerless to challenge.

Only those who have a broader responsibility for others, be they club committees, circuit owners, race organisers (or promoters) and series convenors jump up and down, as they generally do so, not for personal reasons (unless otherwise stated) but they do it on behalf of others.

The general licence holders should not be deemed satisfied or dissatisfied, just because they don't jump up and down or add to a forum. There are plenty of lurkers on this and other forums who will be either nodding their heads or shaking their heads at every single post - and even more who have no idea what is going on.

They enter, turn up, compete, go home - and that is all they ever want to do. If I said I was levying every single driver $20 to cover my time, now I am on a more restricted income, they'd happily pay up - just as long as the series fulfils their needs and they considered they were getting value for money. What MSNZ is doing in areas outside the pure governance side is probably of no interst to most, but without the searching questions and challenges of others, no doubt we'd be taken advantage of.

Very nicely put Ray.

Cheers,
Nick.

[Evomike]

Originally Posted by socram

Having run a race series for 17 years, I am fairly sure that 9/10 drivers just want someone else to organise things for them, hold their hands at times and just want to go out and enjoy themselves. That 9 out of 10, only really grizzle when they find that the red tape affects them directly, or rules are drafted and installed without them having had any input (especially when those rules appear to be somewhat misguided, considering the low level at which they compete).

Many get in touch with me with a MSNZ related query, then shrug their shoulders or shake their heads and just carry one, but they are not going to raise their heads above the parapet, regardless.

Changing roll over tube dimensions by a minor percentage; having to replace the fire extinguisher bracket to a double clip, when for 40 years, a single clip was deemed adequate, are not majors in the general scheme of things but the majority of licence holders will just do as they are told. They accept that we have a governing body but in many cases, are powerless to challenge.

Only those who have a broader responsibility for others, be they club committees, circuit owners, race organisers (or promoters) and series convenors jump up and down, as they generally do so, not for personal reasons (unless otherwise stated) but they do it on behalf of others.

The general licence holders should not be deemed satisfied or dissatisfied, just because they don't jump up and down or add to a forum. There are plenty of lurkers on this and other forums who will be either nodding their heads or shaking their heads at every single post - and even more who have no idea what is going on.

They enter, turn up, compete, go home - and that is all they ever want to do. If I said I was levying every single driver $20 to cover my time, now I am on a more restricted income, they'd happily pay up - just as long as the series fulfils their needs and they considered they were getting value for money. What MSNZ is doing in areas outside the pure governance side is probably of no interst to most, but without the searching questions and challenges of others, no doubt we'd be taken advantage of.

Well put.

Mike

[sollitt]

Mike, I agree with your post, and also accept that, as we mix in different circles we will have a different perception of 'contentment' in the marketplace.

Ray has hit the nail on the head. Generally 90% will go about their business with no interest whatsoever in the political goings on as they are really of no consequence to them.
This is simply the point that that Carl was making. It's not all doom & gloom.

It is correct to challenge questionable decision making, however to believe that the silent majority support our every protest is to be as guilty of ostrich like behaviour as those we accuse.

There is a real danger (and I think the Classic & Historic group have come close to this at times) of being thought of as the boy who cried wolf.

Yes, I am concerned about the TMC/MPL debacle and will be following developments closely.
I'm not at all close to the Tier 1 Circuit categories and so not fully up with all that occurred. It is certainly far from ideal. Unfortunately the losers in these situations always tend to be the competitors and their supporters and that is unacceptable. There do need to be some accountabilities over this.