Audi R15 TDi - the thread - Page 43

dxk1 · 15 Jul 2009, 14:07 (Ref:2502240)

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeb

It's refreshing to hear so much honesty.

You're right about that, but then again, I've never known Nishy to mince words anyway.

DK

chernaudi · 15 Jul 2009, 18:36 (Ref:2502410)

Too bad that we didn't get a confirmation of plans for later this year. But then again, Allan is an Audi factory driver, and they pay him to drive their LM/ALMS cars, say the truth on things like in that article, and, when neccessary, keep their secrets.

But one would think that Porsche being in debt to the point where VAG would likely have to bail them out, that Audi would be freer to make plans for the second half of this year. But then again, some of the money that could be used on a second half ALMS program are probably being deverted to help Porsche.

Mal · 23 Jul 2009, 06:57 (Ref:2506432)

Hopefully this is good news for the racing programmes of Audi & Porsche:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/241782/

Tim the Grey · 23 Jul 2009, 11:29 (Ref:2506528)

How have they achieved a debt that size? They had options on pretty much EVERY VW share under 6 months back, and were reckoned to have banked nearly a billion from such?

Something sounds odd, here? Spin it one way, it's a pile of debt. Spun the other, you are making a fortune?

Mal · 23 Jul 2009, 11:34 (Ref:2506531)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

How have they achieved a debt that size? They had options on pretty much EVERY VW share under 6 months back, and were reckoned to have banked nearly a billion from such?

Something sounds odd, here? Spin it one way, it's a pile of debt. Spun the other, you are making a fortune?

Some one will probably know more clearly - but I believe they effectively gambled on the share prices when they bought VW shares and thus when the markets collapsed it cost them fortunes.

Porsche were said to be a hedge fund company masquerading as a car company under that management.

Mockenrue · 23 Jul 2009, 12:03 (Ref:2506548)

That's pretty much it. Basically what happened was Porsche's holding company amassed debts of more than 9 billion Euros buying a 51 percent stake in VW AG. The debt became difficult to service as Porsche's car sales plunged during the downturn and the company hit difficulties agreeing refinancing packages with the banks.

Mal · 23 Jul 2009, 13:39 (Ref:2506633)

The main point of thecomment though was that Weideking was known to be totally anti motorsport and was largely credited with putting the brakes on Audi ALMS campaign when it looked like Porsche were taking over VAG. Now he is gone and VAG management is back in charge I am hoping things could change for the better in both camps

HORNDAWG · 23 Jul 2009, 16:02 (Ref:2506697)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mal

The main point of thecomment though was that Weideking was known to be totally anti motorsport and was largely credited with putting the brakes on Audi ALMS campaign when it looked like Porsche were taking over VAG. Now he is gone and VAG management is back in charge I am hoping things could change for the better in both camps

I, also, am more optimistic about the R-15 program being stepped up now, with the fact that Weideking has been ousted from power at Porsche and the infigting now able to be halted.

L.P.

dxk1 · 23 Jul 2009, 16:21 (Ref:2506700)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I, also, am more optimistic about the R-15 program being stepped up now, with the fact that Weideking has been ousted from power at Porsche and the infigting now able to be halted.

L.P.

Also, it looks like now it will be a merger between the two companies rather than one taking over the other.

DK

trahsub · 23 Jul 2009, 17:34 (Ref:2506725)

to that then.

cmk · 23 Jul 2009, 20:36 (Ref:2506827)

It may not be the storybook ending that some might hope for, but I don't think things can possibly get worse for the R15 programme now that the weasel is outro.

chewymonster · 24 Jul 2009, 03:32 (Ref:2506955)

Hopefully we see the R15 contest a few races this year with the new developments. Not guaranteed, but maybe more likely.

Sixty5cobra527 · 7 Aug 2009, 15:06 (Ref:2517402)

Does anyone know the story about the R15C with the 3.7L V8 diesel?

Dead-Eye · 7 Aug 2009, 15:20 (Ref:2517408)

The what?

Zurbert82 · 7 Aug 2009, 15:24 (Ref:2517412)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sixty5cobra527

Does anyone know the story about the R15C with the 3.7L V8 diesel?

I think somebody made that up...

Sixty5cobra527 · 7 Aug 2009, 15:32 (Ref:2517416)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zurbert82

I think somebody made that up...

Oh, thats disappointing...

chernaudi · 10 Aug 2009, 07:28 (Ref:2518604)

Does Audi even have a stock-block aluminum V8-V12 to use-the graphite iron(read "steel") block V8 would weight at least a much as the V10, and probably a lot more than the R8's 3.6 turbo V8, of which the V10 in the R15 is a few inches longer and probably proportionally heavier.

But then again, the iron/steel block Ford 302/5.0 Windsor is lighter and more compact than the all-aluminum 4.6/5.0 Cammer V8 that used in DPs, the Panoz and Ford GT GT2 cars and in a 5.5 version, in the Matech Ford GT. Inspite of this, guess what will end up in the IMSA FLM cars if they see the light of day, when aluminum Ford 302 and 351 blocks and their reated components could be bought from Ford Racing for as much as(if not slightly cheaper) than the 5.0 Cammer crate motor.

Audi will probably stick with the 5.5 V10 unit until they have to switch to the smaller engine(probably by 2011-13, depending on IMSA/ACO grace periods as with the LMP900/675 cars), and design a new car at that time.

gwyllion · 10 Aug 2009, 08:05 (Ref:2518622)

I don't understand what you are talking about. In LMP2 diesel engines have to based on production engines, but in the current and future LMP1 class (2011) the block is completely free. And yes a future 3.7 V8 turbodiesel will weigh more than the old R8 3.6 V8 turbo petrol. That is obvious...

chernaudi · 10 Aug 2009, 15:40 (Ref:2518903)

Purpose built, probably not-the 3.6 block and heads had to withstand diesel-like pressures and forces due to direct injection and turbocharging-and Baretzky said that the V12 and V10 are struturally very similar to the 3.6 V8-just longer and heavier due to the increased number of cylinders and similar displacement per cylinders, especially the V12.

gwyllion · 10 Aug 2009, 21:03 (Ref:2519144)

I find that hard to believe. Diesel engines have a compression ratio of around 17:1 compared to 11:1 for direct injection petrol. Hence, the diesel block and heads have to endure much higher forces.

chernaudi · 11 Aug 2009, 04:55 (Ref:2519294)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I find that hard to believe. Diesel engines have a compression ratio of around 17:1 compared to 11:1 for direct injection petrol. Hence, the diesel block and heads have to endure much higher forces.

In the book "Bentley at Le Mans", Baretzky said that the R8's engine ended up pulling at least a theoretcial 15:1 though this is partly through the effect of turbocharging, the R8's engine is a purpose built racing engine, designed from scratch(though it has some superfical similarties to the Cosworth DFV-the overall demensions, flatplane crank, for example), and Baretzky himself(the issue of Racecar Engineering about the R10 from '06) has said that structually, the V8 and the V12 share the basic strutural design.

And why did Audi run the direct injection stuff on the R8 to begin with? Could it have been a dress rehearsal for the R10 and R15's V12 and V10 diesel engines-after all, the FSI system is firmly rooted in VAG's TDI technology.

And it also helps to remember that the R8's engine was overbuilt for what it was intended for-the engine assembly weighed over 350lbs, compared to about 280 for the current Judd V10.

gwyllion · 11 Aug 2009, 12:29 (Ref:2519525)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chernaudi

In the book "Bentley at Le Mans", Baretzky said that the R8's engine ended up pulling at least a theoretcial 15:1 though this is partly through the effect of turbocharging, the R8's engine is a purpose built racing engine, designed from scratch(though it has some superfical similarties to the Cosworth DFV-the overall demensions, flatplane crank, for example), and Baretzky himself(the issue of Racecar Engineering about the R10 from '06) has said that structually, the V8 and the V12 share the basic strutural design.

Sorry, I don't under this "at least a theoretcial 15:1 though this is partly through the effect of turbocharging". Turbocharging implies you have less compression through cilinder displacement, because the air is already compressed by the turbo. In this article Baretzky states that the compression ratio was above 12:1. That is a lot less than 15:1.

Perhaps another number to illustrate that the TDI engine has to endure larger force: turbo pressure = 1.67 bar for R8 vs 2.94 bar for R10!

Quote:

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And why did Audi run the direct injection stuff on the R8 to begin with? Could it have been a dress rehearsal for the R10 and R15's V12 and V10 diesel engines-after all, the FSI system is firmly rooted in VAG's TDI technology.

When Audi made the R8 FSI engine, there were no hits whatsoever at diesel power LMP cars. I think you are reading too much into that

Quote:

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And it also helps to remember that the R8's engine was overbuilt for what it was intended for-the engine assembly weighed over 350lbs, compared to about 280 for the current Judd V10.

According to this article the R8 engine weighs 175 kg. It is quite obvious that turbocharged engines weigh more than NA engines. Extra components are necessary: turbos, intercoolers, more hoses, etc.

chernaudi · 11 Aug 2009, 15:39 (Ref:2519615)

Again, why would the the very man who designed both engines(and every major Audi competition engine since the early '90s, if not earlier) admit to such similarities-to throw Peugeot off? But, of course, Audi Sport wasn't likely to let just anyone walk out of their HQ with an engine...

chewymonster · 12 Aug 2009, 06:16 (Ref:2519988)

And weight? Baretzky is slightly relenting: “You can work it out
for yourself,” he says, adding: “The R8 gasoline engine weighs
175kg. On a piston for piston basis the R10 weighs slightly less.”

A comparable AER V8 turbo is listed @ 118 kgs with turbos, But I bet you can weight engines differently.

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/aerturbolmp1v8.html

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/audir8-01-1.html

Still, I bet the Audi V8 is designed for maximum reliability instead of minimum weights, and this strategy is best for endurance racing. The R10 V12 TDI also looks fairly similar to the R8 gas engine in general layout.

Based on the Baretzky estimates the R10/R15 engines actually weigh a little more than the production graphite iron V6 TDI, but the way they are weighted can come into play again.

As a final thought, Audi would probably rather continue to race with the V10 rather than make a new V8.

zac510 · 12 Aug 2009, 10:15 (Ref:2520127)

21kg per piston for the V8 then, that puts the V10 somewhere around 210kg, then subtract whatever 'slightly less' is in numerical terms

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