Renault Dismiss Flav and Pat or Oh dear… Here comes trouble

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

But what are we accusing him of?

A lack of sportsmanship may not be a desirable attribute but it's hardly a crime. For me he'd only be guilty if he was in on the plot.

No, but for me it just proves that he is a lying, conniving, cheating littel (er?) Spaniard who cannot be trusted and is prepared to take the credit for winning things he doesn't deserve.
To have been so closely involved with all recent controversies without implications the Teflonso nickname seems appropriate.

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

No, but for me it just proves that he is a lying, conniving, cheating littel (er?) Spaniard who cannot be trusted and is prepared to take the credit for winning things he doesn't deserve.
To have been so closely involved with all recent controversies without implications the Teflonso nickname seems appropriate.

So you really don't like him then!

[Knowlesy]

Don't let the post fool you, VIVA is renowned on this board as something of an Alonso fanatic.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by sizzle

So you really don't like him then!

No sizzle, I'm not much of a fan (now), for all the reasons I've stated (and a few more which I'm sure I'll think of given time!).

And thanks Knowlsey for trying to give me a smoke screen!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

But what are we accusing him of?

We're accusing him of being involved. The FIA does not have the legal powers of investigation that the authorities have and can only rely on information given voluntarily. That proof of Alonso's involvement was not presented to them, does not mean it doesn't exist. It could also mean that Fernando Alonso has managed to successfully evade detection... which is not all that difficult given the circumstances.

Originally Posted by Super Hans

For me he'd only be guilty if he was in on the plot.

If you're completely satisfied that Alonso had no involvement whatsoever, then no problem. That's your perogative. For me, and quite a lot of others, the FIA process couldn't answer that question satisfactorily. Significant doubt prevails.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

No, but for me it just proves that he is a lying, conniving, cheating littel (er?) Spaniard who cannot be trusted and is prepared to take the credit for winning things he doesn't deserve.
To have been so closely involved with all recent controversies without implications the Teflonso nickname seems appropriate.

Hey, that's my part !

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by davyboy

We're accusing him of being involved. The FIA does not have the legal powers of investigation that the authorities have and can only rely on information given voluntarily. That proof of Alonso's involvement was not presented to them, does not mean it doesn't exist. It could also mean that Fernando Alonso has managed to successfully evade detection... which is not all that difficult given the circumstances.



If you're completely satisfied that Alonso had no involvement whatsoever, then no problem. That's your perogative. For me, and quite a lot of others, the FIA process couldn't answer that question satisfactorily. Significant doubt prevails.

Totally right. Alonso having no involvement is unlogical. At least at some point in the whole plot he must have known, even if only for his own curiosity. The fact that he was aware makes him an accomplice, for inaction at least. Just like for McLaren, when he was aware of the issue and he went to the FIA, because he felt it was wrong allegedly, now as the main beneficiary, he should feel the same way, but it didn't happen that way.

[Marbot]

Just because you've been found 'not guilty' doesn't mean that you're innocent.

[VIVA GT]

/\/\ Thanks guys!
I was beginning to feel I was a lone voice on here...

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Personally I just cannot accept that Teflonso didn't know about this. He may not have suggested the idea, or even decided when the crash was to take place, but his strategy was strange before the race (and he didn't question it?), the accident clearly benefitted him directly (and he didn't question it?), ande the team must have just shrugged when it happened (and he didn't question it?).
Not asking an obvious question when you can clearly work out the answer means you must know what happened.
(I bet he always wins at paintball, all the evidence will just drop off without a trace!)

I'm clearly in a minority of one on here, so call me naive if you will, but lets examine a few things.....

1.Alonso's car is extremely fast in free practice and quali.

2.His car has a fuel problem in quali 2, putting him out of qualifying.

3.The team submit, to the FIA, his fuel load for the race on saturday afternoon.

4.The now, imfamous discussion takes place about 30 minutes before the race, which is proberbly about 20 hours after the team submitted his fuel load.

So, are we saying the the decision was taken to crash Piquet (dispite him apparently not knowing about it) the day before? Maybe it is possible, but no one, that includes Flav, Pat, Jnr, or Alan Permane have actually come out and said that Alonso was aware of the decision, so where is our proof?

[kartracer41]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I'm clearly in a minority of one on here, so call me naive if you will, but lets examine a few things.....

1.Alonso's car is extremely fast in free practice and quali.

2.His car has a fuel problem in quali 2, putting him out of qualifying.

3.The team submit, to the FIA, his fuel load for the race on saturday afternoon.

4.The now, imfamous discussion takes place about 30 minutes before the race, which is proberbly about 20 hours after the team submitted his fuel load.

So, are we saying the the decision was taken to crash Piquet (dispite him apparently not knowing about it) the day before? Maybe it is possible, but no one, that includes Flav, Pat, Jnr, or Alan Permane have actually come out and said that Alonso was aware of the decision, so where is our proof?

Why would they incriminate the guy they were all trying to benefit?

[Down F0rce]

Originally Posted by kartracer41

Why would they incriminate the guy they were all trying to benefit?

Piquet has no reason to hide anything anymore, hence why he came to the FIA in the first place. If Alonso was in on it then Piquet would have said so.

I'm going to take the "innocent until proven guilty" view on Alonso for this one...

[kartracer41]

Originally Posted by Down F0rce

Piquet has no reason to hide anything anymore, hence why he came to the FIA in the first place. If Alonso was in on it then Piquet would have said so.

I'm going to take the "innocent until proven guilty" view on Alonso for this one...

Piquet took down people who screwed him. Alonso did nothing to him. Who knows, maybe they are friends. I can see many reasons why Piquet would NOT bring Alono into it.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Down F0rce

I'm going to take the "innocent until proven guilty" view on Alonso for this one...

in a civil society thats just a right an accused has in a criminal trial. since no criminal trial is taking place i feel as though he shares some responsibility here in proving to us/fans etc that he was not involved.

obviously he is content to say he didnt know and leave it at that. but now that it is accepted that the event was tampered with, no explanation of what he thought at the time of a low fuel stint from that far back on the grid, no contrition after finding out what happened, and no attempt to distance himself from his tainted win does little by way of convincing me that he is innocent here.

for what its worth i would be willing to accept his innocence here if he just gave back the trophy and asked for the win to be taken of his record.

[icemachine]

If I was overseeing an operation as sensitive as fixing a race, I'd be damned sure each participant knew only as much as required to carry it off, possibly putting a false trail or two, in order to limit damage from exposure. I suspect we will never really know what really went down, unless Flav takes some inspiration from OJ's "If I did it"

[jab]

Originally Posted by Mr V

4.The now, imfamous discussion takes place about 30 minutes before the race, which is proberbly about 20 hours after the team submitted his fuel load.

This is probably the key thing. They may have chosen to go light anyway

I also subscribe to the 'innocent until proven guilty' line

[chillibowl]

O.J. and Alonso supporters unite!

[JABWOA]

For me, Alsono is innocent (until proven otherwise) and had no direct involvement. It's not the first time a car has started super light hoping to cash in on a possible SC period.

Under Bernie's medal plan, this whole affair could be a normality...

[Mr V]

Seem's Fernando has upset the authorities with his Flav dedication here

[Super Hans]

It seems that Massa is the latest driver to claim victory in the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix.

Felipe Massa has said that Renault’s cheating cost him the 2008 World Championship, which Lewis Hamilton won by a point. In an interview with Globoesporte.com.

“I was very upset with everything that happened,” Massa said. “Not only with what Renault did, which was a theft. And it created a lot of things, the Safety Car meant that most of the cars had to go the pits, and I was one of them. We had 10 cars going into the pits. Mine went wrong. There were two cars at the same time. A mechanic pressed a button in a situation that would never have happened in a normal pit stop. What bothers me is that Renault stole the win.

“The result remains the same,” Massa said. “This is not right. For me it should have been changed. I lost the title by one point. I am not and never will be a driver who thinks, ‘I could have been World Champion’. “Even if they write today in my CV that I am the champion, after a year, I don’t think it would make any difference.

“We went to a lawyer, but there comes a time when there is nothing that can be done. Is the rule, the FIA decides.”

Source: www.joesaward.wordpress.com

A theft, Felipe? Ah well, you bagged a victory in Belgium that shouldn't have been yours. Swings & roundabouts.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

It seems that Massa is the latest driver to claim victory in the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix.



A theft, Felipe? Ah well, you bagged a victory in Belgium that shouldn't have been yours. Swings & roundabouts.

Hmm, this doesn't bode too well for Entente Cordiale between team mates at ferrari next yer does it?

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Hmm, this doesn't bode too well for Entente Cordiale between team mates at ferrari next yer does it?

Haha.

He'd better get used to Alonso taking wins off him.

[old man]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

It seems that Massa is the latest driver to claim victory in the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix.



A theft, Felipe? Ah well, you bagged a victory in Belgium that shouldn't have been yours. Swings & roundabouts.

Oh I so agree with Super Hans here


That Spa decison was a disaster and could be blamed for all sorts of things IMO

[nobster]

[QUOTE=JABWOA;2551599]For me, Alsono is innocent (until proven otherwise) and had no direct involvement. It's not the first time a car has started super light hoping to cash in on a possible SC period.

Below is the weight of each car following qualifying for the Singapore Grand Prix, sorted by qualifying position.

Pos Driver Weight (kg)
1. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 660.5
2. Vettel Red Bull-Renault 651.0
3. Rosberg Williams-Toyota 657.5
4. Webber Red Bull-Renault 654.5
5. Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes 655.5
6. Alonso Renault 658.0
7. Glock Toyota 660.5
8. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber 650.0
9. Kubica BMW-Sauber 664.0
10. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 664.5
11. Nakajima Williams-Toyota 680.7
12. Button Brawn-Mercedes 683.0
13. Raikkonen Ferrari 680.5
14. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari 678.0
15. Trulli Toyota 690.9
16. Sutil Force India-Mercedes 693.0
17. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari 683.5
18. Fisichella Ferrari 678.5
19. Grosjean Renault 683.0
20. Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes 656.0

Not only Alonso starts wiyh not much fuel from the back...

[Born Racer]

Even if they write today in my CV that I am the champion, after a year

Don't worry. They won't.