Ford's Return to GT Racing

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Ford drivers speed was pretty consistent. Fastest laps and average laps of all the drivers only covered by 1.6 seconds over all 4 cars. Doesn't take into account slow zones or anything but that's amazingly tight.

For comparison, the Corvettes were spread by 3.3 seconds. Anyone can say what they want about Ford, but that's a brilliant performance by all the drivers.

And the car. That thing is unreal. When people say it's a protoype, it's not a lie.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

One thing lost in all the hullabaloo and controversy is which one of the 12 Ford drivers ended up fastest in the race.


Scott Dixon.

...actually was that a surprise in any way?

With the lineup they had, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a handful of those drivers, but this makes me smile some.

Thanks for bringing up racing and not politics

[deggis]

Someone on Reddit "Just had a very interesting conversation with some Ganassi crew members awaiting a flight from Paris to Chicago".

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by deggis

Someone on Reddit "Just had a very interesting conversation with some Ganassi crew members awaiting a flight from Paris to Chicago".

Interesting stuff, thanks.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by deggis

Someone on Reddit "Just had a very interesting conversation with some Ganassi crew members awaiting a flight from Paris to Chicago".

Take it with a massive grain of salt. As someone who used to get approached all the time about whatever when travelling in team gear, we'd rarely give a full truth. especially with a program like this.

Not to be a jerk, but, because you never knew who anyone was.

Like my job now, if someone asks, "what's the worst thing you've ever seen" I always make up a story to satisfy them, why? Because usually the worst things I see, I don't care to remeber.

[carbsmith]

Multimatic running the WEC cars is something that was outright announced (albeit fairly quietly), everything else sets off the BS detector.

[MaskedRacer]

Lots of hours of the Ford GT onboards from Le Mans is on youtube still archived. I hope it stays on there for a long time. You can go to sleep with that sound.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Multimatic running the WEC cars is something that was outright announced (albeit fairly quietly), everything else sets off the BS detector.

I think it was actually common knowledge TBH....regadless....the rest? Eh.

Especially the part where they were flying to Chicago. The CGR shops are in Indinapoils for the Indy/IMSA teams.

And last I checked, Indy gets international flights.. maybe not as many as O'hare, but, still... seems to be mostly BS.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

There is some truth there as in the comment of how 50 years ago the gt40s were a mess and the Americans sorted the, out and turned them into winners.those Americans were Shelby American.as far as the same thing going on this year who knows.....

[Gingers4Justice]

Just a thought...

If you were to take the BoP away and just the race the cars as they were built, what would you expect the competitive order to be?

Personally, I would expect Ford to be the fastest car as it's built to the next regs and designed specifically for Le Mans with all the might of one of the world's biggest car companies behind it.

I'd expect Ferrari to have a fast car as that's also built to the new rules, and I'd expect Risi and AF Corse to find a lot of pace in the car very quickly.

Porsche I'd predict would struggle given that the works cars were a one-off entry, the engine is getting on a bit, and the fact the rules are really starting to favour mid-engined cars.

Corvette I would suggest would struggle with a front-engined machine which is adapted, rather than designed for, the new regulations.

And Aston Martin have been racing the V8 Vantage since the Pontlieue hairpin was still in use.

I'm not defending the ACO/FIA at all for their inconsistency with the BoP process, but for all the controversy, I think the competitive order is remarkably similar to what it would be without all the political nonsense we seem to get which dominates discussion about the class.

A lot of people are suggesting the ACO helped Ford, but that thing should be the class of the field. The controversy is not the pace of Ford, but rather the lack of help handed to their rivals.

[Coach Ep]

Nah, the controversy is the way the whole orchestrated showing is being brought as a 'another landmark event by Ford in the history of LM24'.

Ford must have been making some serious donations in order to receive such generous sympathy from the ACO/FIA...

Anyways, there should be no worries about Ford running away with the WEC (or IMSA) championship, first and foremost because Ford is not interested in the championship at all - it was all about LM. Heck, I can even see them not winning another race before the end of the year, only to 'bounce back' (read: outperforming all others again in the BoP soap opera) for Daytona next year!

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

If you were to take the BoP away and just the race the cars as they were built, what would you expect the competitive order to be?

I ask this about every year but no one ever answers back

Anyway:

(the gaps below are to emphasize the gaps in performance from top to bottom)
_________________________________________________________

Ferrari

Ford






















Corvette























































Porsche
























































































Aston Martin

[Graham Goodwin]

Nope - the Ferrari was being raced very close to the edges of its performance envelope

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

Nope - the Ferrari was being raced very close to the edges of its performance envelope

The same Ferrari which was +20kg heavier, had 8 liters less fuel and 2,95mm smaller fuel flow restrictor than the Ford?

[carbsmith]

If there was no BoP the Ford wouldn't be racing ay all.

I haven't seen the appendix that covers boost values so I have no idea how heavily the turbo cars are or aren't BoP'd.

[Brake dust]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

I think it was actually common knowledge TBH....regadless....the rest? Eh.

Especially the part where they were flying to Chicago. The CGR shops are in Indinapoils for the Indy/IMSA teams.

And last I checked, Indy gets international flights.. maybe not as many as O'hare, but, still... seems to be mostly BS.

Was on the same flight. At least one of the Risi guys was on the flight too. Sadly, there has been a huge consolidation with the airlines and with that hubs. Only way to fly direct to Indy from France is by charter / private plane.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by Chiana

The same Ferrari which was +20kg heavier, had 8 liters less fuel and 2,95mm smaller fuel flow restrictor than the Ford?

I agree with GG and also think that the Ford is a better car. The aero of the cars gives me such impression.

But it's unfair to compare them with other cars which are made primarily with the street use in mind, then adapted to race against primarily race cars like Ford and Ferrari, adapted to street use.

For instance, the Porsches are relatively short tracked(small width), too tall and round. The design purpose is aesthetics, primarily, not the most aero efficient. Ford and Ferrari are wide, low and with sharper shapes.

[TF110]

The Vette would be bonkers too if it ran without all those restrictions. Imo, they should do a gt1 like ruleset for the class. If mid engined cars have an advantage, make them run 30-50kg heavier. If you don't have an efficient engine (thirsty), run something smaller. This bop crap is annoying and Ford showcased how poor the balancing is.

[BSchneiderFan]

I understand the logic of balance of performance, but an atavistic part of me just thinks it's WRONG. Build a quick car or get beaten. And mid-engined cars won't always inherently have an advantage - look at the Panoz LMP, which could beat the BMW V12 LMR in the right hands. Besides, from what I understand, the engines are so far back in "front" engined cars like the Corvette and the Aston that they're not a kick in the pants away from mid-engines anyway.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

The Vette would be bonkers too if it ran without all those restrictions. Imo, they should do a gt1 like ruleset for the class. If mid engined cars have an advantage, make them run 30-50kg heavier. If you don't have an efficient engine (thirsty), run something smaller. This bop crap is annoying and Ford showcased how poor the balancing is.

But your idea of weighing cars down that are faster IS a BoP. It isn't as full on as it is now, but that's how the idea started. It just grew arms and legs from there on. And then with this idea, Corvette wouldn't be able to race at all. Run something smaller in a Corvette? They hardly have an I4 engine version to race do they? So we'd lose Corvette because they wouldn't be even remotely close to winning and never would be. Or the flip side is we'd see homologation specials, and prices would go through the roof and we'd kill the class.

Great idea in theory, but doesn't work too well.

[carbsmith]

You have a few misconceptions. Like that the current generation small block Chevy is an inefficient engine. (kind of a silly one when they have the second smallest fuel tank in the class and the street car has the best fuel economy)

The problem with BoP is right in the name. It's Balance of Performance. BoP doesn't aim to equalize anything but results.


A front mid-engined GT car is indeed usually not much if any of a handicap, because unlike purpose built race cars proper street cars need silly things like bumpers, proper two seat cabins, storage compartments, etc., aerodynamic devices are limited, and with a minimum weight you can just build the car underweight and throw all the ballast in the back so the cars end up reasonably similar except for whether the driver or engine crosses the line first and maybe where the oil cooler is. The only place they struggled was making use of the low rear wing required in the GT2/GTE regulations. Also see the NSX in GT500, which with production silhouette bodies isn't any kind of advantage at all.

Now with the Ford you have a limited run car going against vehicles that are in constant year over year production, and because of that they can use things that are really impractical for a volume production car for a performance advantage (even the 488 will sell more race cars alone than Ford will ever build GTs of any kind) The problem we have is not a Corvette racing a 488, it's more like a 488 racing a Le Ferrari. Actually they built almost twice as many of those as Ford is going to build GTs either.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

But your idea of weighing cars down that are faster IS a BoP. It isn't as full on as it is now, but that's how the idea started. It just grew arms and legs from there on. And then with this idea, Corvette wouldn't be able to race at all. Run something smaller in a Corvette? They hardly have an I4 engine version to race do they? So we'd lose Corvette because they wouldn't be even remotely close to winning and never would be. Or the flip side is we'd see homologation specials, and prices would go through the roof and we'd kill the class.

Great idea in theory, but doesn't work too well.

Vette has a 6L engine in their road car but a 5.5L in their race car. That's "smaller". Never said bop shouldn't exist at all, but the current bop is garbage. In Super GT pre 2014 you had 1100kg minimum weight with success ballast. Everyone ran a front engined car, but before Honda had the HSV they used the NSX and it was 1150kg. That formula worked. Maybe GTE doesn't go the exact route, but close to it would be much better and easier to understand.

[Coach Ep]

I've never understood the logic to penalize success, what's wrong with gaining a competitive edge?

Just set the rules, stick to them (!) and let them race. Anyone interested will bring its best solution to the party, no need to cater to all.

[Akrapovic]

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/0...-24-hours.html

As I said a few pages ago, Fords attitude here has been crap. Tried to like them, but now it appears they'll try to blackmail other teams. GTE has turned into BTCC. I won't be too fussed when Ford end this program.

[TF110]

I don't see the big deal. A team trying to get a win is nothing new. A team trying to gain a competitive advantage is nothing new. A team trying to get another penalized for something they were penalized for is nothing new. Why is the writer singling out the Ford team when the Risi team lodged a protest as well? Oh, because they went to their garage for a 'gentlemen's agreement'? I donno, to me, it's just a shrug of the shoulders.