[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[JAG]

PLM was ruined with so many cars on track, it needs to be a WEC OR ALMS round, not both. I would say the same for Sebring too unless the Challnege classes are omitted.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by JAG

PLM was ruined with so many cars on track, it needs to be a WEC OR ALMS round, not both. I would say the same for Sebring too unless the Challnege classes are omitted.

Couldn't this also be the case why PLM isn't on the WEC calendar?
ALMS won't give up on one of it's honor races, and ILMC thinking it's too crowded if both series is there at the same time?

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by CTD

ALMS won't give up on one of it's honor races, and ILMC thinking it's too crowded if both series is there at the same time?

Yes, the WEC officials already said that was one of the reasons. That and the safety car rules that influence the racing too much and may have an effect on the championship.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Yes, the WEC officials already said that was one of the reasons. That and the safety car rules that influence the racing too much and may have an effect on the championship.

Oh.
Why do people still whine over PLM not being on the WEC schedule when there are perfectly good reasons? (in any case from ACO's side)

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by CTD

Oh.
Why do people still whine over PLM not being on the WEC schedule when there are perfectly good reasons? (in any case from ACO's side)

Personally I don't care, and hope that Sebring is off the WEC schedule soon too. The ALMS needs to manage their series for what is best for them. My main beef is having had Bahrain scheduled on the same weekend, that was a BS move.

[Rodger Davies]

yeah, same here - fair do if it's not in the WEC, I don't like it but I understand why.

To go out of the way to arrange another event half the world away for the sportscar world's teams, drivers and media on the same day is downright stupid at best and I don't think this is a best case scenario...

[JAG]

Considering the ALMS calender is still not finalised, and there's potentially going to be a two month gap between PLM and the previous round, it shouldn't be beyond man to find a fix.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

Considering the ALMS calender is still not finalised, and there's potentially going to be a two month gap between PLM and the previous round, it shouldn't be beyond man to find a fix.

Appreciating that most of the teams have booked their hotels, and travel already...

[JAG]

If it's a choice between a two month break, few international teams or media coverage, or changing travel and booking arrangements twelve months in advance, that doesn't seem to be a particularly difficult decision.

[Purist]

Except that the whole WEC calendar at that point is too tight. You would have to schedule PLM before Silverstone to avoid that (and give any Euro entries enough of a window to make it work for them). This scenario just doesn't work, period.

Acid, Audi and Peugeot never raced one another with factory cars at Barcelona. Also, Imola this year, and Zhuhai now on two occasions, haven't exactly been barn-burners as far as actual fights for position between the Audis and Peugeots.

Bahrain is an empty, wide, sterile F1 track. You have few, if any, landmarks for reference to get a sense of speed, and the wide track and massive run-offs don't help this either. The place doesn't have the character or a soul of its own. It will never draw a great crowd that could give it one, because there aren't that many seats, and there aren't that many people who will ever choose to go there who can also actually afford to. In addition, the crowd would be so far away, you'd never see them on the TV cameras anyway. And no, a desert track CAN be a motor racing mecca, as Riverside, California demonstrated very clearly in its day.

Technical aspects don't help here either. The Bahrain Endurance Circuit extension may well be narrower than the rest of the track, and is tight enough on the whole, with enough changes in direction also, that even just dealing with traffic will be a royal nuisance for that portion of the lap. As it's an F1 course, many of the corners are slow or medium-speed, with long straights joining several of them. This deprives the LMPs of some of their principle advantages over the GTs, while highlighting just how slow they've been made now on the straights. This increases the chances prototype drivers will end up taking to deal with traffic, as well as in trying to outmaneuver and dupe each other. Furthermore, Tilke seems especially adept at coming up with corners and complexes that are really just "one line" sections, which leads to even more last-minute ducks and dives.

So, I have to say that I don't care for Bahrain as a circuit for this either. If they are going to insist on a Middle Eastern round, I'd go with Dubai. That track has a more interesting layout, more high-speed corners, isn't quite as featureless, and has more variation in the lines you can reasonably take through several of the corners. Qatar is even more featureless and amorphous than Bahrain. Abu Dhabi is out because Bernie would insist on the WEC using one of the shorter layouts.

[Purist]

I've already mentioned why a reschedule of PLM won't really work anyway, as far as garnering any possible extra entries at least.

Now, fine, the Road Atlanta track was too crowded with both grids. However, I'm still hacked off that Bahrain is the exact same day as PLM. You can't convince me that there were no other open dates at Bahrain. The WEC organization already knew when PLM was going to be. And PLM, it sounds like, had already been moved from its usual slot to accommodate the race at Fuji.

The WEC made their bed. They CHOSE to do this with full knowledge, and I cannot find this decision acceptable. Even worse, look at how spread out the first parts of their season are, and then, magically, around that time of year, you suddenly couldn't squeeze in an enduro on another continent if you wanted to. I don't care if it's the build-up to, or cool-down from, Le Mans. They don't NEED that much separation between a number of those events, and those last five races crammed together like that just proves my point.

Frankly, I don't care what the market or economists say. "Buying" a World Championship rubs me the wrong way. Also, the FIA/ACO should NOT be legitimizing a regime under very evident public pressure by running a race in that country. As for South Africa, it seems that sponsor pressure was applied at least once, once public outcry was evident in that country.

And it's a bigger issue now anyway. In the 1980s, we didn't have CNN or internet news. Now, we do. This stuff is now constantly in our faces, and shown with a scope never-before-seen, because of all the outlets now available to organized news services and to individuals trying to get the word out from the inside. Now that we know, and we know there is public outcry in those countries, we cannot plead ignorance ourselves, or in good conscience say it's alright for groups/people we follow to act ignorant of the facts themselves.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Purist

I've already mentioned why a reschedule of PLM won't really work anyway, as far as garnering any possible extra entries at least.

Now, fine, the Road Atlanta track was too crowded with both grids. However, I'm still hacked off that Bahrain is the exact same day as PLM. You can't convince me that there were no other open dates at Bahrain. The WEC organization already knew when PLM was going to be. And PLM, it sounds like, had already been moved from its usual slot to accommodate the race at Fuji.

The WEC made their bed. They CHOSE to do this with full knowledge, and I cannot find this decision acceptable. Even worse, look at how spread out the first parts of their season are, and then, magically, around that time of year, you suddenly couldn't squeeze in an enduro on another continent if you wanted to. I don't care if it's the build-up to, or cool-down from, Le Mans. They don't NEED that much separation between a number of those events, and those last five races crammed together like that just proves my point.

Frankly, I don't care what the market or economists say. "Buying" a World Championship rubs me the wrong way. Also, the FIA/ACO should NOT be legitimizing a regime under very evident public pressure by running a race in that country. As for South Africa, it seems that sponsor pressure was applied at least once, once public outcry was evident in that country.

And it's a bigger issue now anyway. In the 1980s, we didn't have CNN or internet news. Now, we do. This stuff is now constantly in our faces, and shown with a scope never-before-seen, because of all the outlets now available to organized news services and to individuals trying to get the word out from the inside. Now that we know, and we know there is public outcry in those countries, we cannot plead ignorance ourselves, or in good conscience say it's alright for groups/people we follow to act ignorant of the facts themselves.

Yeah, what he said. First, why is anyone still bringing up the car count issue to this debate? We all know that Petit (and probably Sebring in the future) aren't sustainable as a two-series race. The question is why the Bahrain race was scheduled on the same day as PLM. I, and many people here, cannot come up with one logical excuse for that. It just seems that the pro-WEC manifest destiny crowd knows there is no excuse so they keep bringing up the car count issue when that is not even the debate.

Boring track, a blood filled country, date conflicts, tight schedules, buy a date on the schedule, FIA mandates. Any of these issues alone might not be a reason to protest a race, but the combined power of all of those does lead to the question of why anyone would want to touch Bahrain with a ten foot pole. Ok, we know why, but that isn't a good reason.

Anyway, it is sickening that the ACO is supporting a racing cartel when that cartel loves the power cartel in the Bahrain region of the Middle East. But, hey, wahooo goooo cartels when they hand out "world championship" status. As we all know, if you win just a "championship," you are nothing more than a drudge. But if you win a "world championship," you sit on the right hand of god. Well, a god at least. The universal truth of auto racing. The FIA is devine.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by AGD

Yeah, what he said. First, why is anyone still bringing up the car count issue to this debate? We all know that Petit (and probably Sebring in the future) aren't sustainable as a two-series race. The question is why the Bahrain race was scheduled on the same day as PLM. I, and many people here, cannot come up with one logical excuse for that. It just seems that the pro-WEC manifest destiny crowd knows there is no excuse so they keep bringing up the car count issue when that is not even the debate.

Boring track, a blood filled country, date conflicts, tight schedules, buy a date on the schedule, FIA mandates. Any of these issues alone might not be a reason to protest a race, but the combined power of all of those does lead to the question of why anyone would want to touch Bahrain with a ten foot pole. Ok, we know why, but that isn't a good reason.

Anyway, it is sickening that the ACO is supporting a racing cartel when that cartel loves the power cartel in the Bahrain region of the Middle East. But, hey, wahooo goooo cartels when they hand out "world championship" status. As we all know, if you win just a "championship," you are nothing more than a drudge. But if you win a "world championship," you sit on the right hand of god. Well, a god at least. The universal truth of auto racing. The FIA is devine.

Reminds me of the same talk the CARTians were spouting off before the 1996 U.S. 500.

[Purist]

There were that many CART fans on message boards back in 1996? Really?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Purist

There were that many CART fans on message boards back in 1996? Really?

You better believe it. There was Speednet or whatever the Indy Star racing site was known as back in the day. Newsgroups too. Those were big back in the day. The "legendary" IRL driver Slick Racin Gardner Jr. (AKA Racin Gardner) used to post on one!

But, yes, the WEC blind loyalty does sound like CART/Andrew Craig and IRL/Tony George unabashed love back in the day.

[TF110]

This crap is been discussed to death, if PLM happens then great, if it doesn't, oh well. Money makes the world go round. If Bahrain has paid a bunch of cash to get a race there, good for them. This talk about the WEC being planned on the exact day of PLM is tiresome, and it's derailing this thread.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Purist

There were that many CART fans on message boards back in 1996? Really?

Read the second part of AGD's most recent post, thats what I meant. By "CARTians" I was talking about their leadership, and personalities. Same thing applies to the IRL with George, Foyt and propaganda minister Leo Mehl.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by TF110

This crap is been discussed to death, if PLM happens then great, if it doesn't, oh well. Money makes the world go round. If Bahrain has paid a bunch of cash to get a race there, good for them. This talk about the WEC being planned on the exact day of PLM is tiresome, and it's derailing this thread.

Sadly, you are 100% spot on regarding this particular issue and it's relationship to motorsports.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Sadly, you are 100% spot on regarding this particular issue and it's relationship to motorsports.

As far as I'm concerned they should scrap the race in Bahrain and hopefully circumstances outside of the control of the FIA/WEC might just intervene as they did this year with F1, hopefully without any loss of life.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Sadly, you are 100% spot on regarding this particular issue and it's relationship to motorsports.

That's only half of the story. The other half is the near global rule that racing sanctioning bodies will take short term cash always rather than conduct long term strategic planning. All too often organizers will take the big check from Frogballs, Arkansas, or Bumbletuck, Thirdworldia instead of delivering good racing where there are loyal fans.

Oh, and I think it is hilarious that you mention Leo Mehl. Before going to the IRL, I believe Mehl was the head of Goodyear Racing. Isn't the former head of Michelin Racing working for the ACO? Baud-Modem or whatever his name is?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by AGD

Oh, and I think it is hilarious that you mention Leo Mehl. Before going to the IRL, I believe Mehl was the head of Goodyear Racing. Isn't the former head of Michelin Racing working for the ACO? Baud-Modem or whatever his name is?

Leo Mehl was head of Goodyear Racing and interestingly Bernie was somewhat influential in bringing Goodyear back into F1 during the FISA/FOCA war in the early 80s, when Michelin dominated F1; but I digress.

[JAG]

The lack of understanding about what a World Championship means, both today, and from a historical perspective, and why it's so important to avoid F1 conflicts explains a lot.

An ALMS fan would look at things from a national perspective, and how the series comeptes with GA, if your looking at it from the perspective of world sportscars, you want to investigate whether it's possible to run at venues like Daytona, Montreal and Watkins Glen, you want to attract Dyson from the ALMS, Penske from Indycars and Ganassi from GA.

Sportscar racing needs a World Championship, by it's definition it's going to take precedence over national and regional series, but those that are strong will survive and prosper.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JAG

Sportscar racing needs a World Championship, by it's definition it's going to take precedence over national and regional series, but those that are strong will survive and prosper.

I agree Sportscar racing does need a World Championship series. Years ago I followed Group C avidly and preferred it to F1 but the sport became rather disparate and it became harder to follow.

I think nothing but good will come from a designated World Championship and will bring focus back to the sport and like all things starting afresh it won't be perfect but the bugs will be ironed out.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

The lack of understanding about what a World Championship means, both today, and from a historical perspective, and why it's so important to avoid F1 conflicts explains a lot.

What does a World Championship mean? It means that the egos come out.

I'm sooooooo glad that we have a World Championship Touring Car series now. Hooray! I can finally flush those horrid, horrid memories of the BTCC in the 90s away. I'm sure our German DTM fan friends and our Australian fan friends are beyond enthusiastic about dumping the woeful memories of their lowly domestic series so that they can now watch World Championship touring car racing. Erm, check that, actually our DTM and V8 fan friends could careless about World Championship touring car racing and are probably more cheesed about the egos of their domestic series trying to internationalize themselves. Oops. Oh well.

As for not competing against F1, who cares? So now the ACO has all the benefits of having very little control over their schedule? So now the WEC has to compete against all other series that are "not F1" who have the same idea? Have DVRs not made their way to Europe? Oh, maybe that is the problem and the ACO is concerned that the fan's VHS recorders won't fit all 6 hours on one tape. Well, get a T-160 tape if you have to or whatever the PAL/SECAM equivalent is. That's not an excuse either. The media excuse is laughable at best. Even if it was true, is it really all that beneficial to split the sports car media during the Petit weekend? They're only guaranteed to get so much attention and even that is going to be split now. Way to blow, ACO. Hey, that rhymes!

There's no greater way to acknowledge F1's absolute dominance than by running scared from it and that's what the ACO is doing. Did NASCAR run scared from USAC/CART dates back in the day? Heck no! And that was before VCRs even in some cases. And how did that turn out? Scoreboard, baby.

An ALMS fan would look at things from a national perspective, and how the series comeptes with GA, if your looking at it from the perspective of world sportscars, you want to investigate whether it's possible to run at venues like Daytona, Montreal and Watkins Glen, you want to attract Dyson from the ALMS, Penske from Indycars and Ganassi from GA.

ALMS fans, for the most part, don't give a damn about Grand-Am. It's just that other "sports car" series. What ALMS fans do care about is why the ALMS' so-called partners are trying to crush the ALMS and steal their races.

Sportscar racing needs a World Championship, by it's definition it's going to take precedence over national and regional series, but those that are strong will survive and prosper.

No, it does not need a World Championship. A world championship (lower case) might be beneficial, but it had that in 2010 and 2011. Is a salt the earth (except for the places where F1 would like to run) FIA World Championship really all that necessary? IMO, absolutely not. It's not like the NFL had to sell their series to MLB to get the "World Series" title to give their championship game any legitimacy. They did what they had to do on their own and things turned out just fine. I don't see any reason why the ACO could not have done the same. There's nothing magical about World Championships. FIA WTCC? What's the point? FIA GT1 WC? Wait, that's a real series? FIA WRC? Oh yeah, I remember that! How's Tommi Makinen doing this year? FIA World Championship Wrestling? Oh, wait, that's not an FIA series. It is out of business though. Or is it? They can just put a camera in the streets of Bahrain. Even the WWE can't compare to that kind of entertainment!

[JAG]

In the grand scheme of things the ALMS is minor league, and will be until domestic manufactuers give it the same attention they do NASCAR, the DTM and Aussie V8's are their nations stock car equivalents.

The above have little profile outside their local market, series like F1 and the WRC are global products, NA is the only region they struggle to break, but it's a unique market, with unique road cars, and unique motor racing.

Sportscars is the one discipline that crosses over into this market, but looking from a World Championships perspective it only necessitates one or two races, with Daytona and Montreal ranking above most ALMS venues given the choice, that shouldn't come as a suprise, they'd be priced assets if the ALMS could get in on them.

To sum up, the ALMS wants to be a World Championship located in NA, manufactuers and teams want a World Championship to be just that.