MSNZ & TMC - 'Wheels start to come off'

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by promax

blah blah blah, funny that

I started posting Nov 2011 - largely in response to the tiresome sniping from a few self justified experts.
Irrespective of ones view, I like to see points of difference articulated.
As an observation, I've not noticed you commenting on the wider aspects of the sport maxi. I am however proud of you for progressing past single sentences and a smiley face.

I would agree with you that there are some ardent fans of ST who are a bit reactive in their posts.

At the end of the day, NZ motorsport history will remember 2012 as the year that ST arrived
Definitely 2013 is a fresh year and the category needs to prove itself all over again.

Neither taking the 'chicken little' approach and predicting endlessly the immiment demise of ST, nor the 'emperor's new clothes' - all is amazing approach, are correct.

What is interesting however is that this isn't about a single class any longer - this is about an entertainment package.

Have any of the die-hard NewZealandV8 supporters ever stopped to consider whether they might be the Beta and ST may be VCR?

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Have any of the die-hard NewZealandV8 supporters ever stopped to consider whether they might be the Beta and ST may be VCR?

Ah, I for one don't quite follow you there. One is a testing phase (prototype) and the other a generic name for some products which have long since been superceded by superior technology. Please clarify because I think the general drift could be interesting.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

Ah, I for one don't quite follow you there. One is a testing phase (prototype) and the other a generic name for some products which have long since been superceded by superior technology. Please clarify because I think the general drift could be interesting.

Perhaps for the young people I should have said BlueRay vs HD DVD or MS vs SD.

In the battle starting in the mid 70's for home video recorder market there were two main formats.
One (Betamax) was the theoretically superior product. The other (VHS) was what the consumers wanted and the war was won.

Building a 'better mousetrap' is no guarantee of anything...

[Vanishing Point]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Plus 1 on that Club racer...well written.

I too am dissapointed that ST wont be the undercard for this years ITM, but i think at the end of the day it was going to be a big ask. Afterall isn't the ITM the final round for the NZV8's (and when i say final i do mean FINAL).

So from here lets look at the positives. ST starts up in a couple of weeks, it will be a huge event.

NZV8's will no doubt run to the end of their series, with maybe 5 TLX cars total (def 4 one would think with the FG), and then all going well, ST will be sanctioned as teir 1 by the time the V8SC comes back next year and then they will be on the card then.

But to add to that I do honestly think that MSNZ must be made up of complete muppets. Whats going to happen come April will be a very embarrasing show of motorsport with the whole two races in one idea (i.e TLX and TL cars sharing the same race). The Aussies will be laughing their t*ts off at what NZ can't do.

And after all of the supposed 'constructive' talks between the two camps, some info has clearly gone in one ear and out of the other.

All this does it make MSNZ look ridiculous and dysfunctional. Fortunately though, the big picture is that the ST's will be top gun pretty soon (according to MSNZ) so given enough time, hopefully we will have something decent to put on the grid at the ITM in 2014.

I could do a better job than MSNZ.....and i do mean that.

Duplicit, arrogant, irresponsible and a law unto themselves, thats how I would describe MSNZ's behaviour over Taupo and Pukekohe, and the reason they behave so dishonestly is because they know they are accountable to no one, they have their own agenda and and do not consider the greater good of Motorsport in NZ. Shane Harris and his possie of idiots need to go.

[Brian Budd]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Plus 1 on that Club racer...well written.

I too am dissapointed that ST wont be the undercard for this years ITM, but i think at the end of the day it was going to be a big ask. Afterall isn't the ITM the final round for the NZV8's (and when i say final i do mean FINAL).

So from here lets look at the positives. ST starts up in a couple of weeks, it will be a huge event.

NZV8's will no doubt run to the end of their series, with maybe 5 TLX cars total (def 4 one would think with the FG), and then all going well, ST will be sanctioned as teir 1 by the time the V8SC comes back next year and then they will be on the card then.

But to add to that I do honestly think that MSNZ must be made up of complete muppets. Whats going to happen come April will be a very embarrasing show of motorsport with the whole two races in one idea (i.e TLX and TL cars sharing the same race). The Aussies will be laughing their t*ts off at what NZ can't do.

And after all of the supposed 'constructive' talks between the two camps, some info has clearly gone in one ear and out of the other.

All this does it make MSNZ look ridiculous and dysfunctional. Fortunately though, the big picture is that the ST's will be top gun pretty soon (according to MSNZ) so given enough time, hopefully we will have something decent to put on the grid at the ITM in 2014.

I could do a better job than MSNZ.....and i do mean that.

Well NZST Fan it is fantastic that you think you could do a better job than MSNZ. I take it that you have some knowledge as to what is involved in running a national sporting organisation. I look forward to receiving your nomination for a position on the Sport's Executive or one of the advisory commissions. It is only when you get involved in the running of MSNZ that you will realise the complexity of the job and that it is much more than dealing with one class.

Nominations can be submitted through your affiliated car club.

[Member CCC]

Originally Posted by Vanishing Point

Duplicit, arrogant, irresponsible and a law unto themselves, thats how I would describe MSNZ's behaviour over Taupo and Pukekohe, and the reason they behave so dishonestly is because they know they are accountable to no one, they have their own agenda and and do not consider the greater good of Motorsport in NZ. Shane Harris and his possie of idiots need to go.

Ok so I have just finished talking to one of my North Island friends to see what has gone on here and these are the facts that I was given. Firstly there was never a plan for MSNZ to have ST at their Taupo event in fact in their season program that was printed before Christmas the event schedule was published with 9 classes running so where was there room for ST to run. My understanding was that it was talked about in the ST MSNZ meeting but there was no agreement. I was also told that a week or so ago Mark Petch went to Taupo Motorsport park to try and negotiate to take over the March MSNZ Championship date and backdoor the sport. Not exactly working with MSNZ to bring things back together! My question to you is why are ST still trying to organize a March date? Is it because they burnt Manfeild and were totally disorganized and haven't got their **** together to plan a calendar! So now they are coming to Christchurch with what show to support it the week before our major truck meeting now thats clever! And of course this is the track that is not safe for ST to race on didn't seem to be a problem for Skope Classic to race today!

[nistfan]

Originally Posted by Brian Budd

Well NZST Fan it is fantastic that you think you could do a better job than MSNZ. I take it that you have some knowledge as to what is involved in running a national sporting organisation. I look forward to receiving your nomination for a position on the Sport's Executive or one of the advisory commissions. It is only when you get involved in the running of MSNZ that you will realise the complexity of the job and that it is much more than dealing with one class.

Nominations can be submitted through your affiliated car club.

So I take it you will be standing down then

[Brian Budd]

Originally Posted by nistfan

So I take it you will be standing down then

Your comment shows a total lack of knowledge of the structure of MSNZ. Iam an employee, not an elected member of the Executive.

[nistfan]

Originally Posted by Brian Budd

Your comment shows a total lack of knowledge of the structure of MSNZ. Iam an employee, not an elected member of the Executive.

You can still resign then

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Perhaps for the young people I should have said BlueRay vs HD DVD or MS vs SD.

In the battle starting in the mid 70's for home video recorder market there were two main formats.
One (Betamax) was the theoretically superior product. The other (VHS) was what the consumers wanted and the war was won.

Building a 'better mousetrap' is no guarantee of anything...

Gotcha! If you'd said Betamax & VHS I would have understood. But Beta & VCR threw me.

[Goat Boy]

Only thing is, the TLX was never a superior product to the ST. At any stage.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

And that unfortunately is what I believe to be one of the issues for the Skippies don't want anyone to rain of their parade.
Dress it up however you like but that has always been and will continue to be an issues with the Aussie V8's rscing in NZ.
When they are running the show us kiwis are expected to look and behave like we are second class and that theirs is the superior product.

It is just the old golden rule being applied once again.

I agree with that, and have said as much in the past. There isn't a lot visually to differentiate the two types, and if they are running broadly similar lap times then the punters might wonder what all the fuss is about.

BTW how much does being on the MNZ exec pay? Might have a go at standing myself...

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Only thing is, the TLX was never a superior product to the ST. At any stage.

Am I not allowed to be kind to the believers? Note in the explanation of the analogy I said 'theroretically'. In actualality the inference of Betamax being the superior format was likely due to better marketting.
But I take your point - because the TLX marketting is purile

Originally Posted by Member CCC

this is the track that is not safe for ST to race on didn't seem to be a problem for Skope Classic to race today!

Welcome back! We havn't heard your cheerful voice for a bit. How many of the amazing Skope Classic rockets were lapping in the 1:23's? And of course, selective hearing and all that but the accusation of an unsafe track came om a rather emotional driver. I'm sure he'll be more than happy to turn up in March and put on a great show. The chatter from the 'great unwashed' is largely 'noise'.

Originally Posted by Brian Budd

Well NZST Fan it is fantastic that you think you could do a better job than MSNZ. I take it that you have some knowledge as to what is involved in running a national sporting organisation. I look forward to receiving your nomination for a position on the Sport's Executive or one of the advisory commissions. It is only when you get involved in the running of MSNZ that you will realise the complexity of the job and that it is much more than dealing with one class.

Nominations can be submitted through your affiliated car club.

RogerH has been kind enough to fill us in on your background prior to this position. It must have been a very steep learning curve for you - a bit different to ensuring the supplies of resin and brasso arrive o time and quelling revolt in the reed section, heading off the hiphop party trying to book the same venue etc etc.

It has been pointed out that you are an employee and have been saddled with responsibilities over and above your key functions. Some of us may have more of an understanding of the complexity than your realise. Anyway - you are less in gun these days.

The key anger is directed at a venal and self serving executive.

[E36ST]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

How many of the amazing Skope Classic rockets were lapping in the 1:23's?

.

About a dozen or so, and with a lot less safety protection than ST's!

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=2560306

[Member CCC]

Welcome back! We havn't heard your cheerful voice for a bit. How many of the amazing Skope Classic rockets were lapping in the 1:23's? And of course, selective hearing and all that but the accusation of an unsafe track came om a rather emotional driver. I'm sure he'll be more than happy to turn up in March and put on a great show. The chatter from the 'great unwashed' is largely 'noise'.

Thanks Craig not sure why I bother some times with all the untruth and crap on here. But at least you write with an informed and logical approach even if it be somewhat one sided (as I guess most people have picked a side). I'm sure Johnny will be back too. Sure the Skope cars aren't all lapping in 1.23s but an FF5000 car still laps around here pretty damn fast with no where the same safety protection of a modern car. On a positive note didn't the variety of cars look awesome here yesterday? Certainly the public are enjoying the cars and they don't all have to be identical to provide great racing

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by E36ST

About a dozen or so, and with a lot less safety protection than ST's!

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=2560306

One day there is going to be a big shunt and a fireball with the F5000's.
They weren't safe in their day. They aren't safe now.
(Not a comment on any circuit in any way)

I agree that at many meetings there is a tremendous varielty of machinery to look at and the public enjoy that. I enjoy watching cars circulating to their strenghts and exploiting others weaknesses to pass just as I enjoy watch a better driver outdrive superior equipment.
I also really enjoy control class racing. I'm glad we have a mix in this country.

As for picking sides - I go where I'm interested.

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

BTW how much does being on the MNZ exec pay?

Same pay rate as for any of the members of commissions be they elected or appointed, or for any of the officials that you see around any race meeting such as Stewards, Clerks of Course, CRO's etc. etc.

[Brian Budd]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

I agree with that, and have said as much in the past. There isn't a lot visually to differentiate the two types, and if they are running broadly similar lap times then the punters might wonder what all the fuss is about.

BTW how much does being on the MNZ exec pay? Might have a go at standing myself...

Executive members do not get paid. It is a voluntary position which in terms of time involvement equates to a full time job.

[Brian Budd]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Am I not allowed to be kind to the believers? Note in the explanation of the analogy I said 'theroretically'. In actualality the inference of Betamax being the superior format was likely due to better marketting.
But I take your point - because the TLX marketting is purile



Welcome back! We havn't heard your cheerful voice for a bit. How many of the amazing Skope Classic rockets were lapping in the 1:23's? And of course, selective hearing and all that but the accusation of an unsafe track came om a rather emotional driver. I'm sure he'll be more than happy to turn up in March and put on a great show. The chatter from the 'great unwashed' is largely 'noise'.



RogerH has been kind enough to fill us in on your background prior to this position. It must have been a very steep learning curve for you - a bit different to ensuring the supplies of resin and brasso arrive o time and quelling revolt in the reed section, heading off the hiphop party trying to book the same venue etc etc.

It has been pointed out that you are an employee and have been saddled with responsibilities over and above your key functions. Some of us may have more of an understanding of the complexity than your realise. Anyway - you are less in gun these days.

The key anger is directed at a venal and self serving executive.

So Roger has seen my CV he hasn't discussed my past career or experiance with me. No it was not a steep learning curve as I have been involved in motorsport since the early 1970s and have considerable experiance in running and managing businesses.

[Worsel]

OK, I have looking at this forum (10 tenths) for about 8 months now & thought it was time for posting. This thread has degenerated into mud slinging at individuals who are involved with our sport. It is true our sport is in a huge pile of chocolate jam, but its not all the fault of MNZ & TMC. Something to do with the economy, egos and self interest come into it too. Most sporting organisations on NZ are in strife.

For the record I have never met Brian Budd, don't know him, nor am I anything to do with MNZ or TMC, I'm just a car club member with no axe to grind. I have no affiliation to any series, team or other business who has personal gain at stake.

I'm not happy about the situation with MNZ & TMC and I have made my views known, to their faces!

Let's stop the personal attacks and start putting things in place to move the sport forward. Comments such as how much motorsport executive members get paid (yea right) show a distinct lack of any understanding of how motorsport is run, and god forbid the sport if people like that get involved.

The time to do something about the management of the sport is NOW, not at the AGM. Everything needs to be in place well before the AGM with regards to remits, nominations for office(s) etc.

Lets have something constructive instead of cheap, nasty comments.

[Swedish Brick]

Originally Posted by Worsel

OK, I have looking at this forum (10 tenths) for about 8 months now & thought it was time for posting. This thread has degenerated into mud slinging at individuals who are involved with our sport. It is true our sport is in a huge pile of chocolate jam, but its not all the fault of MNZ & TMC. Something to do with the economy, egos and self interest come into it too. Most sporting organisations on NZ are in strife.

For the record I have never met Brian Budd, don't know him, nor am I anything to do with MNZ or TMC, I'm just a car club member with no axe to grind. I have no affiliation to any series, team or other business who has personal gain at stake.

I'm not happy about the situation with MNZ & TMC and I have made my views known, to their faces!

Let's stop the personal attacks and start putting things in place to move the sport forward. Comments such as how much motorsport executive members get paid (yea right) show a distinct lack of any understanding of how motorsport is run, and god forbid the sport if people like that get involved.

The time to do something about the management of the sport is NOW, not at the AGM. Everything needs to be in place well before the AGM with regards to remits, nominations for office(s) etc.

Lets have something constructive instead of cheap, nasty comments.

hard to imagine that being possible on here, but is a damn good idea.
The reality is if you don't like the way things are, very little can be done about it here. Get your car club sorted and follow the correct procedures and if your opinion matches enough of the other members things will happen.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by Worsel

OK, I have looking at this forum (10 tenths) for about 8 months now & thought it was time for posting. This thread has degenerated into mud slinging at individuals who are involved with our sport. It is true our sport is in a huge pile of chocolate jam, but its not all the fault of MNZ & TMC. Something to do with the economy, egos and self interest come into it too. Most sporting organisations on NZ are in strife.

For the record I have never met Brian Budd, don't know him, nor am I anything to do with MNZ or TMC, I'm just a car club member with no axe to grind. I have no affiliation to any series, team or other business who has personal gain at stake.

I'm not happy about the situation with MNZ & TMC and I have made my views known, to their face!

Let's stop the personal attacks and start putting things in place to move the sport forward. Comments such as how much motorsport executive members get paid (yea right) show a distinct lack of any understanding of how motorsport is run, and god forbid the sport if people like that get involved.

The time to do something about the management of the sport is NOW, not at the AGM. Everything needs to be in place well before the AGM with regards to remits, nominations for office(s) etc.

Lets have something constructive instead of cheap, nasty comments.

Welcome Worsel. Your are correct. Best to have ducks in a row to effect change.
Brick is correct is saying what he has but I disagree that nothing can be changed here. As I posted earlier, lets have a discussion about the sort of peoplethat we want to lead the way forward.

THe problem of course is that the way the whole deal is structured makes it incredibly difficult to get the old out.
By closing ranks the 'old guard' are able to wave the spectre of 'Evil Mark Petch' at a whole heap of people and lead not with a clear vision, but by fear of the unknown.

Brian - glad to hear that you found the transition easy. Are you sure you understood the full extent of the problem cause inorance makes a lot of stuff seem easy?
Anyhoo - as said before, this isn't about you per-se

How about you burn some time and give us a blue sky (but realistic) of how motorsport should look in 5 years time.
If you feel this is the wrong place for such a thing, let us know where we could find such a view.
Everyone blames the economy, egos, self interest etc and whilst these are real they are 'constants' and beyond your control.
What are the things that Motorsport can control and what are the contingancy plans?

Criticism is also a constant but, as I'm sure you are aware from your previous past experience, 'mushroom theory' only promotes more growth of the same

PS - I'm interesting in 'bottom up' not 'top down'
Also interested to know something of how the sport intends to manage the challenge of defining and straightening up the classic racing

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

How about you burn some time and give us a blue sky (but realistic) of how motorsport should look in 5 years time.
If you feel this is the wrong place for such a thing, let us know where we could find such a view.

I too would be interested in Brians view but am aware that he is an employee of MSNZ and as such we should not be asking him for his opinions.

By any chance have you seen this:

http://www.motorsport.org.nz/content/strategic-plan

It is a starting point but we need to remember that there is a review of the whole structure of MSNZ currently in progress and that the stratetic plan is a living document that may not reflect the situation as things stand right at this minute in time nor is it the blueprint of exactly what will happen in the future, it is only a plan and as we all know plans can and do change.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

I too would be interested in Brians view but am aware that he is an employee of MSNZ and as such we should not be asking him for his opinions.

By any chance have you seen this:

http://www.motorsport.org.nz/content/strategic-plan

It is a starting point but we need to remember that there is a review of the whole structure of MSNZ currently in progress and that the stratetic plan is a living document that may not reflect the situation as things stand right at this minute in time nor is it the blueprint of exactly what will happen in the future, it is only a plan and as we all know plans can and do change.

I have seen it and largely agree with it.
I realise that it is a living document - is there an archive of the older versions because it is intesting to see how it has evolved.

What I will say about heavily structured plans like this without any form of dynamic leadership is that they can become an exercise in 'box ticking' and good enough becomes the enemy of great.

Most of the criticism aimed at the administration has been for unprofessional behaviour. Honesty and transparancy builds trust and respect.

[socram]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

PS - I'm interesting in 'bottom up' not 'top down'. Also interested to know something of how the sport intends to manage the challenge of defining and straightening up the classic racing

Not sure how to take that! Would you care to expand?

Do you mean Classic Racing is bent, or do you believe it is in strife or it needs more support from MSNZ?!

Like several posters on here (and also on TRS), Classic Racing is our major focus and is currently one of the strongest areas within the sport, but it is both diverse and compact at the same time.

Without the need for national Championships, there are probably major differences in the North and South Islands, but overall, both islands are capable of putting on large events with massive numbers of competitors and they do it very well and they can also run financially viable club meetings.
Having said that, there is a perception, rightly or wrongly, that technical decisions are often made without a full understanding of how they affect classics and historics.

Within the Commission (and I sure Raymond will not disagree), there are major differences of opinion when dealing with cars that are not "pure" Schedule K/Appendix K, and rules for non pure cars have been drawn up that are not 100% workable, given the aging fleet, but this is probably not a long term insurmountable problem.

There is a good mix of well organised series based in the upper North Island that cover everything from a 1950's TR Triumph or a Ferrari 308 getting in a bit of track time in Classic Trials, through several one make series, Historic Muscle Cars pure and not so pure, European and Japanese Series for production and low volume cars, allcomer race saloons through to FJ, FF, F5000 and other single seaters and historics. That covers just about anything vaguely deemed classic and generally, I think most would be quite happy if there were NO new rules - ever! The consensus is probably "leave us alone, we aren't broke, so we we don't need fixing", but Classics do contribute a substantial amount into the MSNZ kitty via race levies.