Ferrari in 2007 - Page 5

REALIST · 8 Jan 2006, 18:43 (Ref:1497411)

Quote:

Originally Posted by maltafan

Senna: he died to early to see them comfront eachother
Mika: Yes he was a competitor, in fact he won 2 championships
Kimi: Almost won in 2003
JPM: Almost won in 2003 if it was for that incident in Indy
Alesi & Berger: were in the decline of their career and their cars were never competitive ones
Mansell: was about to retire when MS was at Benetton, however he helped Williams win a constructors' title
DC: Not a great driver
Reubens: Was not given a chance with Ferrari. maybe this year he can show what he is worth

So I cannot see direct competition as Senna had with Prost, Mansell & Co

So, if MS had never been around, we would have been bemoaning the lack of ability over the last decade or so would we?

Course we wouldn't, we would have regarded the guys driving F! as the best and assumed they were getting the most out of the vehicles. There's only one reason it could be said that MS had poor competition and that is because he was better than the best, not that they weren't good enough.

**Bononi** · 8 Jan 2006, 20:28 (Ref:1497467)

Thing is, that we could go on with the endless discussion about TGF and the lack of rivals he had through his career, and nothing would really change.
It's not fair to Hakkinen, Jacques and Hill to exclude them as the greatest challengers TGF had. They were champions, against TGF and this is a remarkable achievement per se. And I'm sure they were tough and will be remembered by TGF for making his life so hard. The fact that TGF were so dominant all over this years that we tend to describe a poor field compared with the many champions racing each other in the 80's.
Just like to remember that Piquet (another 3 times world champion) were TGF team mate, and he said, and still says, that TGF is the best driver to date.

bumpsteer · 8 Jan 2006, 22:52 (Ref:1497528)

There are very strong stories going around Finland this weekend that Kimi's deal with Ferrari is done and he will be paid 75M euros.

JohnSSC · 8 Jan 2006, 22:53 (Ref:1497529)

Well, unfortunately for you folks, you are dealing in my case with an aging fan who at times either does not remember to list everyone or is too lazy to do so! Obviously I should not have left off JV & Damon Hill. But, as I noted, if one looks at the drivers active in F1 since 1991 there are some terrific names/talents who have been beaten by Michael.

In a sense, the dominance of Michael has diminished the accomplishments of some of these other drivers, both the great and near-great as he has raised the bar by which we judge them. I think if we were able to fairly and objectively evaluate not only Michael, but also the others we would realize that there has indeed been terrific competition. I mean, think about it: what was the reliability of cars in F1 say in 1975 vs 2005? The lack of degradation in lap times over a race distance across the board for all teams is remarkable. That means that a Michael (or, as in the past year) an Alonso must perform at optimum race in and race out.

My point was and remains that there has been an increase in the general caliber of the competition both talent-wise and mechanically.

Dutton · 9 Jan 2006, 01:18 (Ref:1497573)

Very well put, JohnSSC.

JohnSSC · 9 Jan 2006, 10:32 (Ref:1497727)

Thanks Dutton.

It is an interesting era, this one. Not sure if we are transitioning to a new one for F1. Certainly the aero changes last year and the engine change for this year along with the ongoing now you see 'em - now you don't 4 tyre changes/multiple tyre manufacturers (Michelin gone for '07) may mean that as the turbo era came in went so has the Era of Technical Refinement.

Indeed, with so many drivers still active (Michael, Schumi Lite, JPM, KR, Rubens, DC, Nick, JV, MW, Jarno, etc) from the most recent era we may not yet see a complete changeover.

In any event, the ethos instilled at Ferrari by Michael and the likes of Ross, JT & Co likely positions them well to suceed in the new era as well, as will McLaren and Toyota and Renault. The fun questions are who will be in ascendancy and who will tread water whilst watching some others decline. I am looking forward to it myself!

climb · 9 Jan 2006, 11:39 (Ref:1497760)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nintendo

I reckon senna would have been champ in 94, and have givin schumi anoter good hiding the following seasons too. a great battle missed

A typical doubt that wil never find a solution.

Actually the 1994 had started in avery different way than the one you reckon would have been the final one.
Certainly things can change throughout a season, but the only thing we know is that Schumacher kept going fast, and the Senna/Williams package would have needed a very strong turnaround to not only get better, but also to catch up a front runner who proved consistent.

**chunterer** · 9 Jan 2006, 11:55 (Ref:1497768)

Quote:

Originally Posted by climb

Certainly things can change throughout a season, but the only thing we know is that Schumacher kept going fast, and the Senna/Williams package would have needed a very strong turnaround to not only get better, but also to catch up a front runner who proved consistent.

Well, Senna would have pushed on but struggled to close that points disadvantage and would've been great viewing trying! Hill got on terms largely due to his good work in testing and development and due to Schuey 'missing' a couple of races

Michael did admit later in the season that Ayrton would've run rings round he and Hill once the Williams had found it's feet.

However in '95/96/97 Senna would have been incredibly difficult to beat in those chassis.

Kirk · 10 Jan 2006, 00:36 (Ref:1498259)

It seems Schumi is concerned about the direction Ferrari is headed. His recent statements are somewhat out of character for him ... not his usual close-lipped approach:
_______________________________

Schumacher also expressed concern about the future of the beleaguered Maranello based team, revealing that he believed Ferrari 'need more staff'.

''You cannot afford to stand still in formula one,'' Michael continued. ''I want to know where Ferrari is heading.''
_______________________________

Is it my imagination or are those words of a man contemplating retirement or even switching teams for a final hurrah?

Dutton · 10 Jan 2006, 00:39 (Ref:1498263)

Source?

Kirk · 10 Jan 2006, 00:41 (Ref:1498266)

http://formula-1.updatesport.com/new...ourt/view.html

Dutton · 10 Jan 2006, 00:57 (Ref:1498274)

Cheers, appreciated.

It also appears that site sources the story from GMM Media. At least, that would seem to be the logical company given the "(GMM)".

It seems logical enough that the competitiveness of the car will affect his career decision. If they produce a blinder, combined with Bridgestone, then he knows they are on the right route with the new regs. Have a punt in 2007 for one more, then pack in before hte wholesale changes in 2008.

If he gets another dog, well, then he cuts his losses and settles for 7 titles.

JeremySmith · 10 Jan 2006, 01:28 (Ref:1498285)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirk

http://formula-1.updatesport.com/new...ourt/view.html

I think that is a very manipulated story..

**Bononi** · 10 Jan 2006, 01:39 (Ref:1498288)

You are right Kirk, it doesn't look like him, but could be the age ?
My first thought is no, it's not, but I have the feeling this will make waves...

JohnSSC · 10 Jan 2006, 02:03 (Ref:1498290)

I would be curious to know if this was a quote given originally in English or translated from German. Nuance means a good bit here and perhaps in a larger context Michael may just have been hedging a bit until he can test more - once he has a grip from the driving perspective then he will have a better idea of the "direction."

I think it would be really out of character for him to leave now after everything he has invested in this team personally. Yes, he has been rewarded $$, but he struggled through a few seasons where it did not seem that one, let alone 5 WCC/WDC combinations would be possible with Ferrari.

JABWOA · 10 Jan 2006, 05:18 (Ref:1498334)

How long now until he bags the most GP's raced record (to land the royal flush or is there still the pole record too?)

Fogelhund · 10 Jan 2006, 05:46 (Ref:1498345)

Just a small point on the ongoing discussions of Michael having less competition than other "greats" of the past. Is it possible, that Michael had such talent, that HE made the other drivers seem that much less talented? That Michael was that much further ahead speed wise than any of the "greats" that predated him? It certainly is a possibility.

JohnSSC · 10 Jan 2006, 10:27 (Ref:1498461)

Exactly the point I was making earlier Fogelhund - Michael has raised the bar considerably. Plus the field is smaller which increases the skill level on average. There are fewer seats which increases the competition to get them.

Sure, there are "pay" seats but even today's pay drivers are better than in years past.

**chunterer** · 10 Jan 2006, 10:29 (Ref:1498463)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Just a small point on the ongoing discussions of Michael having less competition than other "greats" of the past. Is it possible, that Michael had such talent, that HE made the other drivers seem that much less talented? That Michael was that much further ahead speed wise than any of the "greats" that predated him? It certainly is a possibility.

Hmmm, nice angle on it, but it really is (imo) down to a combination of:

1/ Circumstances where he has been a top driver in a great set up and other top drivers have been contracted elsewhere/did not want to join him

2/ Number of top liners fair bit less than around the time he made his debut.

Still a fine driver and deserves full credit for his achievements. However we are not going to see another accepted top liner alongside him in a Ferrari so we can't see his ultimate brilliance tested fully.

Past greats have always come up against a top liner of their time in the same car at some point or other.

A s much as i like Massa, i can't see him beating Michael, i do expect him to give him a fright on occassion though.

Hein · 10 Jan 2006, 14:20 (Ref:1498638)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JABWOA

How long now until he bags the most GP's raced record (to land the royal flush or is there still the pole record too?)

Needs 1 more pole to equel Senna.

Not sure about the laps...

Knowlesy · 10 Jan 2006, 14:22 (Ref:1498641)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

A s much as i like Massa, i can't see him beating Michael, i do expect him to give him a fright on occassion though.

Yes, but I doubt this fright will be on track.

He may occasionally walk into Michaels changing room by accident.

Nope, that's all I can think of.

**chunterer** · 10 Jan 2006, 14:28 (Ref:1498642)

Quote:

Originally Posted by knowlesy

Yes, but I doubt this fright will be on track.

He may occasionally walk into Michaels changing room by accident.

Nope, that's all I can think of.

Hein · 10 Jan 2006, 14:34 (Ref:1498646)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hein

Needs 1 more pole to equel Senna.

Not sure about the laps...

OK, out of all the WDC's Shu has the most starts (232), Piquet is second (204).

Who has the all time most out of any driver, does anybody know? Can't seem to find it.

Knowlesy · 10 Jan 2006, 14:46 (Ref:1498659)

Riccardo Patrese, 250 million starts.

Knowlesy · 10 Jan 2006, 14:48 (Ref:1498660)

256 I think, to be more accurate.

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