ERC 2013

[rx-guru]

16,000? Promoter figure! I have once been to an ERC round in Valkenswaard (20+ years ago) with claimed (!) 17,500 spectators. I think this is still the Eurocuicuit record for spectators. People were standing even alongside 'Daytona bocht' as there was no space left on other spots. Okay, no big grandstands by then, but I'm certain they had just about 50% of this crowd yesterday...

[Janneman]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

16,000? Promoter figure! I have once been to an ERC round in Valkenswaard (20+ years ago) with claimed (!) 17,500 spectators. I think this is still the Eurocuicuit record for spectators. People were standing even alongside 'Daytona bocht' as there was no space left on other spots. Okay, no big grandstands by then, but I'm certain they had just about 50% of this crowd yesterday...

Yep, thought the same. Ten years ago at the "korte knie" there was a large crowd. Now a few people with even beautiful wheather. And Holland has much advertisement on RTL7 from about 2 months in advance. So that doesn't help much or maybe already many people watch with livestream?

Regards,
Jan

[FIRE]

@rallycrossnl:
Explain to me why big sponsors will start supporting Supercar drivers and ERC in general when there are only 14 + 2 Supercars and the S1600 and Touringcars race only on Saturday. Except for some really good drivers like Duval and Grondholm the regular drivers race in the A and B finals and get the publicity. Snoecks, Van Loon and others are not the reason big sponsors stay away.

Look at NASCAR. It's the best promoted series in the world but also the most commercial one. Do they limit the amount of drivers? No everybody is welcome but the only thing they do is giving the regular drivers (top 35 of the championship out of 43 car grid) a guaranteed spot on the grid. They could do the same in ERC: e.g. top 8 of the championship is guaranteed of a spot in the finals.

And why moving the other two classes to Saturday. How do they fill up the gaps between the Supercars heats? There must be some time to do repairs. Just a 1 hour break with some track cleaning? I prefer to see racing of Super1600's and Touringcars (I don't understand why people don't like this class but that's another discussion ). These gaps are also not very suitable for live TV coverage.

And moving the Super1600 and Touringcars to Saturday will give them less publicity which results in unhappy sponsors and the risk of smaller grids.

And do you really think mainstream TV channels are interested in 3 hour live coverage on Sunday afternoon when there are lot of other (more popular) sports? I can imagine there's interest to show the finals live (1 hour to 90 minutes coverage).

Does this mean there's no need for change? NO! I really applaud it when an experienced and big marketing company like IMG takes over the promotion of ERC. There's are lot of things to improve but in my opinion there's no need to do major changes to the race format.
I hope the drivers and IMG can make an agreement so the current drivers, fans and sponsors are happy and thanks to promotion IMG they are joined by new drivers, fans and sponsors.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

16,000? Promoter figure! I have once been to an ERC round in Valkenswaard (20+ years ago) with claimed (!) 17,500 spectators. I think this is still the Eurocuicuit record for spectators. People were standing even alongside 'Daytona bocht' as there was no space left on other spots. Okay, no big grandstands by then, but I'm certain they had just about 50% of this crowd yesterday...

Originally Posted by Janneman

Yep, thought the same. Ten years ago at the "korte knie" there was a large crowd. Now a few people with even beautiful wheather. And Holland has much advertisement on RTL7 from about 2 months in advance. So that doesn't help much or maybe already many people watch with livestream?

Regards,
Jan

Does it make sense to compare it with 10 or 20 years ago? It makes more sense to compare it to recent history to see if the extra promotion resulted in a substantial increased amount of spectators.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by FIRE

How do they fill up the gaps between the Supercars heats?

By ditching the current heat/final format in favour of something like the GRC system?...

Originally Posted by Chunder

TV is definately not the be all and end all. On its own it is not enough

It needs to be well put together and good for the sponsors who are involved.

Definately agree with this. I think TV is crucial part of the package - and the effect its absence can have is clear if you consider the WRC - but it needs the right support to extract the full potential of the sport.

[chunder]

Please guys, stop comparing anything to do with rallycross to NASCAR.

NASCAR is one of the biggest sports in the USA and comparing it in any way to rallycross is like comparing football to carpet bowls.

Big sponsors get involved because it reaches gazillions of people on the web, live and on tv. Thats the ONLY reason.

And why does it get this coverage? Because the people that watch it are blue collar people just like you and me who drive trucks, buy insurance, have mobile contracts, buy oil, etc etc.

Rallycross could manage maybe a 1000th of this coverage, so please stop with this stupidity

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by chunder

Please guys, stop comparing anything to do with rallycross to NASCAR.

NASCAR is one of the biggest sports in the USA and comparing it in any way to rallycross is like comparing football to carpet bowls.

Big sponsors get involved because it reaches gazillions of people on the web, live and on tv. Thats the ONLY reason.

And why does it get this coverage? Because the people that watch it are blue collar people just like you and me who drive trucks, buy insurance, have mobile contracts, buy oil, etc etc.

Rallycross could manage maybe a 1000th of this coverage, so please stop with this stupidity

You're right! I think it is impossible to compare the USA with Europe. What works there, doesn't have to work here and vice versa...

[rx-guru]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Does it make sense to compare it with 10 or 20 years ago? It makes more sense to compare it to recent history to see if the extra promotion resulted in a substantial increased amount of spectators.

I compare nothing! I point out that I'm certain they had about half of the claimed spectators yesterday. Got me?

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

they had about half of the claimed spectators yesterday

I think they had about 8.000 spectators, but it was certainly down compared to last year...

[rx-guru]

Yep, 7,000 to 8,000 is my guess too.
Wonder how many people they claim when talking to the tax men...

[rallycrossnl]

'Explain to me why big sponsors will start supporting Supercar drivers and ERC in general when there are only 14 + 2 Supercars and the S1600 and Touringcars race only on Saturday.'

You still fail to read what I am writing. I'm not defending the FIA or this format. I say that 1 promotor doing the advertising etc etc for ERC would work better then what happens now.
In fact, I did write this: 'And indeed smells (cough) of USA involvement in how to kill a sport where it would benifit in so many other ways where you would have 100+ drivers batteling for the price and have 2 broadcasts of 1 hour between events.' in this post: http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....8&postcount=31

I am saying, re-write the soul of the sport, the FIA rallycross regulations. It's full of holes, contradictions, rules one person reads this way and other person reads it different etc.

I am saying refresh the stewards of the offroad commission who have to much influence during races, killed the black flag, handcuffed the clerck of the course and the (by them installed) race director.

Income from live TV/live streams/sponsors/'spaghetti-avond'/whatever, buys you tyres for drivers or tie wraps to put up nation flags around a track. Suppliers don't care where the money comes from. More income buys you more stuff, or more people more stuff. More attention = more income.

Not 16.000? I didn't count them. I just saw the figure on their website. Prolly over 2 days, not that it was that packed on saturday tho.

' TV is definately not the be all and end all. On its own it is not enough'
Right, attention (I'll be using that word if you don't fully read what I write) is what we all should be after. More attention then the other sports, fleamarkets, dogshows etc where POTENTIAL rallycrossfans spend their weekend now. Again, how they spend their money into our sport isn't even interesting. Yeah, large crowds is great, looks good in pictures too, roaring during action sounds great. But there is more nowdays. Fans that can't travel to each race for instance now have livetiming on some tracks. Why not at all? 1 promotor for all events could fix that. Think allong those lines. Live streams from all events. An ERC news app etc etc...

My real thoughts about having a commercial taking over ? If that is what the FIA offroad commision was suckered into, ERC as we know it is over.

So lets all use our influence to shift things our way.
I'll write it again, FIA Commercial ERC 2013 with no tracks and no cars will have this promotor rethink the so feared 3 hour 16 car sunday only format.

[1975DCS]

Of course we should not forget that in the last couple of years some of the biggest Scandinavian drivers has quit Rallycross after years of entertainment. At this moment there is not a single Scandinavian driver with a chance of winning the title. So they have nothing to cheer for! While let's say 3 years ago, there was a lot to cheer for! So even the mighty Höljes event has lost some of it's magic.

And indeed competition comes not only from other Motorsports, but other events as well. In Norway for example they have Gatebil, which is (or at least was for the last time I checked) hugely popular! Some public is the same as in Rallycross, but is an all mental balls out sport. Run what you bring and damn don't talk about restrictions! They want massive power! And with (stupid) films like Fast & Furious series no youth seems to be impressed with 500ish bhp, while they can order that from a catalogue for their Jap motors these days...

Same as on YouTube: it is easy to find impressive stuff over there, take Ken Block for example, he has more viewers from Gymkhana than Rallycross have ever seen! Why? They know how to promote themselves, that's how they attract sponsors and became big... Who in Europe comes close? Err... Maybe Doran? Nope...

[rallycrossnl]

What do the people here think of something else that most likely will happen, 1 or 2 clercks of the course for all rounds?
Replace him if he isn't good enough by a fair voting ? (not likely within a commercial format though)
Restriced/no power for the stewards? If like some say, the FIA sold out, that's going to happen too.

[chunder]

Gymknana has little do do with promotion these dyas.

Yes he is linked to Monster and DC shoes, but they cant find you on youtube, people are typing in Ken Block or Gymkhana, DC and Monster arent finding you.

So, he has developed a fad that means people search for him. Its sort of created itself.

Like the word FAIL, type that in 5 years ago and tou would see little, type it in now and you get hilarity!!

[rallyloverke]

Originally Posted by rallycrossnl

What do the people here think of something else that most likely will happen, 1 or 2 clercks of the course for all rounds?
Replace him if he isn't good enough by a fair voting ? (not likely within a commercial format though)
Restriced/no power for the stewards? If like some say, the FIA sold out, that's going to happen too.

1 or 2 for all rounds sounds logic. if it is a different guy for every round you have 10 opinions about the existing rules.

[rallycrossnl]

Originally Posted by rallyloverke

1 or 2 for all rounds sounds logic. if it is a different guy for every round you have 10 opinions about the existing rules.

That is also the fault of the multi interpretable rules.

[chasing cars]

Part 3
http://erc24.com/archives/7435#more-7435

[rallyloverke]

Originally Posted by rallycrossnl

That is also the fault of the multi interpretable rules.

10 different opinions about multi-interpretable rules = nobody really understands the rules and does what he/she think's is right?

[AndyS]

Originally Posted by chasing cars

Part 3
http://erc24.com/archives/7435#more-7435

Surprised there hasn't been more comment on this. Sounds like a group of individuals, probably with good intentions started the idea and its got completely high jacked. This looks pretty well advanced but not set in stone yet, clearly there are going to be drastic changes one way or the other. Will those making the decisions take note of the indiffernce about these plans or will commercial considerations take presidence?

Sorry to harp on about the FIA again, but it looks like they are at it again trying to move everything out of Europe. I know their not the promoters but they appoint them in full knowledge of their plans. I also understand to have a World Championship you need to go round the World but as with other motor sports this seems driven more by commercial gain and making money on the part of both the promoter and the FIA. No consideration given to the soul of the sport and the fans who turn up to watch it, but motor sport seems to have long ceased caring about either thing.

[chunder]

To be honest, for someone who is a fan of the sport, the lack of communicaiton from people here is staggering.

Youa re talking here about root and branch change to rallycross, and I for one havent got a clue what is going on.

Just about sums modern rallycross up really. Such a shame.

Peopel will just go and watch something else.

[schanche]

Like I have said on F.B it's quite staggering just how advanced this is and that some high profile people instigated the chance of change but by the looks didn't for see just how it could affect the sport?
Tanner Foust has spoken out allegedly and is totally against it, this coming from a US star with a background in Motorsport with large tv audiences. As I said before other drivers need to stand up and have there say, in all Rallycross disciplines. But maybe on a plus side the more we read on this and the reports erc24 are filtering on too the web, I can't see it realy happening.
Rallycrossworld and there lack of reporting on the matter we can now see why! I guess when we went from one Erc website to a Rallycross world website also that's when I guess they were looking at a different future in RX

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by AndyS

Surprised there hasn't been more comment on this. Sounds like a group of individuals, probably with good intentions started the idea and its got completely high jacked. This looks pretty well advanced but not set in stone yet, clearly there are going to be drastic changes one way or the other. Will those making the decisions take note of the indiffernce about these plans or will commercial considerations take presidence?

Except for Foust (and Mark Watson) I didn't read any comments of other drivers. Why not? This must be a hot topic in the paddock.

The fact Foust is against these plans says a lot.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by AndyS

Surprised there hasn't been more comment on this. Sounds like a group of individuals, probably with good intentions started the idea and its got completely high jacked.

That is certainly my interpretation of the contents of the third ERC article. Reading the first few lines - where the initial suggestion seems to have actually been welcomed by the drivers (and is something that many have discussed on this forum) - the final proposal seems like something quite different.

As Fire says above I'm surprised more drivers haven't been vocal if there is as much resistance to these new plans in the paddock as there is amongst the spectators.

I hope that the FiA use some sense when making a decision, but the fact that a positive outcome to this situation is based on me having to use the words "FiA" and "sense" in the same sentence doesn't fill me with confidence...

[USRallycross]

These are discussions that take place behind the scenes and not in public blogs or social media - that is why you aren't reading/hearing lots from the drivers.

Mark

[rallycrossnl]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

As Fire says above I'm surprised more drivers haven't been vocal if there is as much resistance to these new plans in the paddock as there is amongst the spectators.

No offence, but... perhaps they have something better to do, then shouting on a interweb board and are they calling the shareman of their clubs with their complaints and ideas

If your (or theirs (the drivers)) club has to sign up for this, they also can not sign. All clubs work via democratic lines, i.e. by most votes. If not, leave your club. By being (or becoming) a member you as fans, drivers, volunteers, trackworkers, marshals, family, friends, pets etc can have your say and influence. Always has been, always will be.
Again; 0 cars + 0 tracks = 0 ERC2013 (3 hour/16 car/gapjump/RXpr0n)

On the otherhand, the basic idea of doing promotion (as in trying to get more attention) by one entity is still what is needed. The people in the article understood that and tryed to set it up, offered their COMMERCIAL interest to do the promotion (as in trying to get more attention) for FIA Offroad.
I fail to see those people being a succes tho, hence their articles about 'internet failed again' so many times and only very few articles during raceday. And no own video. No info/photo/video 'push' application for computer, ipad, iphone. Nobody invested anyhing it seems.
Rent a sat-link if it's important to you, and want to demonstrate how you can promote ERC rallycross better then the FIA. I've never seen a Sat-link truck with FIA / ERC24 / rallycrossworld (or whatever they wanted to call their company) written on the sides, near a track.
Livetiming is on only a few tracks. It works great but you can't look back for past heats/runs/manches. Those journoos could have an demo app running for years to show the world what is needed. No sign of it.

Back to IMG. Asked what they think will be a commercial succes, given no limits, this comes out. I said it before, marketing for dummys page 1 to 10.

'As we at ERC24 were told by the man himself FIA Off-Road Commission President Andy Lasure (like some other ORC members as well) is all but happy with the current plans of IMG'
So.... Mister offroad, the big man, chief rallycross.. he goes into a meeting with a promotor and says; here's the keys boys, do what you like.
And one week later he cries about the fact that those boys painted his beloved rolls royce pink with orange stripes? What a whoopy, that man can't be replaced soon enough. Did enough damage to our sport anyway, remember he is the 'cartaker' of the FIA bible, and chairing steward meetings with very discussable outcomes. And now tried to bring in a commercial partner without setting the pegs and lines in between that commercial partner had to stay? Sorry but that is a first class fail. Not seen much of those lately. You would expect that todays chiefs understand what goes on in the world and not live 40 years ago in their head?

No Joe Public in the paddock, this is a bad one. I was glad V'waard opened their paddock for all, great atmosphere between heats!
3 Continents means, Europa, USA and ? Africa? South America (most likely), Asia (good guess also)? Oz? Antartica?

So..