No more LMP1 coupes (sort of)... (merged)

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

http://www.endurance-info.com/2007_L...CO_lmp2010.jpg

How nice, a flattened DP.

Ah, it's a Koenigsegg GT1

[Speed-King]

How nice a Nissan R390 clone!

I happen to like the Nissan, so I like this one. I like some DPs though as well, so I guess my opnion isn't worth a whole lot to you^^

[duke_toaster]

I nearly puked over my keyboard when I saw that

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

http://www.endurance-info.com/2007_L...CO_lmp2010.jpg

How nice, a flattened DP.

You know and I know you cannot judge the looks on a sketch, most current LMP's look drab when you see in an initial sketch. It has passing resemblance to the Fabcar DP, which is a pretty car, unlike the Riley, but improves on some of it's failing, i.e. a large cockpit etc.

It's a dead ringer for an R390, which is a stunning car.

I find it amazing how many people slagged off current cars due to their ride height, single seater looks, twin roll hoops etc, etc, and how wonderful those swoopy '90's GT1's were.

Now we have the best of both world's, a proven, safe, chassis with alternative power plants, and those swoopy bodies that find the sweet spot between a Peugeot 908 and '90's GT1 car.

I can't help feel some people just love to jump down on anything the ACO proposes, usually without reading the full proposals, predicting the end of sportscar racing.

Well, these silly fellows at the ACO have put together arguably the best Le Mans grid for a decade, with great competition in each class, have totally redeveloped the circuit into a world class facility and, god forbid, made track changes that actually improve the driving experience.

As a cherry on top they've reveived prototpye racing in Europe after many 'experts' had written it off, along with any hope of a return to the glory days.

When those who know better do as they please, they create Grand-Am, which purist's also slag off.

I'm quietly confident these coupe regs are the final piece that will pave the way towards very significant manufactuer intererst in P1.

I expect further 'the sky's falling in' post's until the day we see one of these cars in the flesh, and say, 'ah there not that bad are they'!

[JAG]

From DSC:-

Such a ‘design’, which really had a flavour of the Super GTs in Japan, would neatly solve the GT1 problem in the ALMS.

So the LMP1s won’t be able to carry on after 2010? Not really true: they’ll be able to have their ballast removed, and run at 825 kg in LMP2'

[Fogelhund]

I'm sure more would be done to the LMP1's, besides have their ballast reduced. Has to be some restrictor reductions or something. Just how fast would a LMP1, at 825 kg be, with no restrictor changes?

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I'm sure more would be done to the LMP1's, besides have their ballast reduced. Has to be some restrictor reductions or something. Just how fast would a LMP1, at 825 kg be, with no restrictor changes?

Whatever the top class is in both rules and appearance, wont the ACO make sure they're around the 3:30 target lap time?

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

http://www.endurance-info.com/2007_L...CO_lmp2010.jpg

How nice, a flattened DP.

Yes, and dull as sin. The question remains, how are privateers, Lola, Radical, Pescarolo, Courage, etc., to fit into the LMP1GT concept? They have no road car to reflect. This is dangerous business and seems to indebt the ACO even further to the manufacturers. How many times will they go this route and how many times will they fail?

[JAG]

Yves Courage said at the press conference they would build a coupe if, as expected, the regs are written with privateers in mind (i.e. costs etc.).

It's worth pointing out the regs, as far as we know, will not demand road car styling, but will oulaw single seater noses and the large opening's seen on current cars.

Manufactuers can't style their protoypes as they would wish, as seen with the original Peugeot 905, Audi R8R, Mercedes CLK-GTR/LM, Porshe 911-GT1 '98, as their cars will always lose out to a machine like the 908 with it's radical front end styling, and for what, a second or two around Le Mans.

Of course the sketch looks bland, so do most cars, but once you see a CLK-LM , R390 etc. in the flesh, they're just as dramatic as any prototype.

Kieron Salter seems to be involved in drafting these regs and he understand's the needs of manufactuers and privateers.

It's personal preference, but IMO we will have the perfect compromise between a 908 and Mclaren F1, without tedious road car homolgation.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by russ250575

1 ) Why call them protoypes if they have to resemble a road car ?

2 ) Not to much of a problem for Audi / pug but where do creation/pesca etc go ? just pick a car of the high street and model themselves on that.

Look up the word prototype.
Until things fell apart in the nineties, cars such as they race now were correctly called sports-racers.
The word prototype was used to find some sort of connection to what used to run at LeMans.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Whatever the top class is in both rules and appearance, wont the ACO make sure they're around the 3:30 target lap time?

I took it as read restrictors would be reduced to P2 levels, seeing as P2 will stay relatively unchanged.

Seeing as the coupes can race alongside current P1's from 2008, and the ACO have a firm 3.30 maximum for race pace, it will be interesting to see what advantages the coupes will have over current P1's to make up for lower downforce levels.

Petrol P1's seem able to lap around 3.34/35 during the race, while the diesels may dip below 3.30, so what are they going to do with the coupes, give 'em 700bhp and run at 850kg!

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by JAG

Seeing as the coupes can race alongside current P1's from 2008, and the ACO have a firm 3.30 maximum for race pace, it will be interesting to see what advantages the coupes will have over current P1's to make up for lower downforce levels.

AH, NASCAR style freight trains droning around LeMans as the pre-set minimum time, how exciting.

[JAG]

Except the best petrol cars are still 4-5 seconds slower than this time, yet are the beefiest 'sports-racers' for a decade plus.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by JAG

Except the best petrol cars are still 4-5 seconds slower than this time, yet are the beefiest 'sports-racers' for a decade plus.

Which is, probably, one reason for the street related looks of the new rules.

The tech. side is a contrived farce, which when comibined with cars that look strange, when compared to cars of even ten years ago, is not working as well as desired; therefore add a little "eye-candy" that can get the attention of the basically ignorant average fan.
"OOOOH, look at the pretty cars. Jeani-jimmi, that one looks almost like the one you drive. Are you a race driver too?" OOOH-LA-LA.

And so it goes.
Bob

[JAG]

That's your interpretation, I disagree, lol

Seems they can't win, you dislike current cars, you dislike '90's GT1 lookalikes, they all appear in the spirit of Le Mans.

BTW, I see DSC are reporting Gorden Murray will write the regs for the coupes, he designed the Mclaren F1, so I guess they're in safe hands!

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by JAG

That's your interpretation, I disagree, lol

Seems they can't win, you dislike current cars, you dislike '90's GT1 lookalikes, they all appear in the spirit of Le Mans.

BTW, I see DSC are reporting Gorden Murray will write the regs for the coupes, he designed the Mclaren F1, so I guess they're in safe hands!

What they did to the BPR series was moronic.

I dislike the contrived rules that castrate the cars engnes; I actually think if the cars do appear similar to the idea shown, that is an improvement, at least in appearence.
I find it amusing that they are clinging on to their draconian engine rules that make a joke of what racing is based on, but are screwing around with anything else, thiinkng that, that, will fix all problesms.

As I said, " Oh look at the pretty car. Pretty cars will fix all problems", or at least they think it will.

[cmk]

While pretty cars would certainly not save the world, they do make a series decidedly more entertaining than a vehicle which looks, as I and many others seem to feel the ACO's proposal does, like a dog's breakfast. I fear, Bob, that the draconian nature of the engine rules you detest is likely here to stay, at least in the medium term. While I don't deny that the ACO's present engine rules are lacking in some respects, I can't say I share your perspective on either the technical or visual aspects of the new rules. Unfortunately, the end result is that neither of us have our viewpoints satisfied. Who exactly is the ACO making happy here? I'm wagering basically nobody, spectators and entrants included.

[gran_champ]

wo0t! this will be like the late 90s, my fav. time in Le Mans history

[JAG]

Martin Birrani of Lola said on Motors TV they've wanted coupe's for a number of years as they believe it wil attract manufactuers.

Apparently they're in talks with two manufactuers, possibly Korean and Japanease.

They need better petrol equivalency before going ahead, which they expect will happen for 2008.

[HORNDAWG]

Sounds to me like we may be looking at more of a three class future.
GT(2ish) LMP lights( 825kg) and LMPE (GTP?)

LMPE: Coupe with mfg. recognizable features. Is this going to become a Super Car class ala FXX, MC12, Saleen, Mosler, Koenigsig(?), Porsche Carrera GT etc.....?

LMP 825: Left overs, for now. Future down the path of VdeV cars?? Or an open class at 825kg but regulated slower than the LMPE class?

GT: 2 with less electronics ?

L.P.

[JAG]

By 2010 it maybe:-

LMPC - similar to LMP1 but with new coupes. This is were Audi, Peugeot and the Lola/Creation coupes will eventually be.

LMP2 - Current P2 cars running at 825kg, plus open LMP1 cars (running to P2 regs) from 2011.

GT 'Stock' - A cross between GT2 and GT3.


The question is whether you will have a GT1 class, or wil the likes of Corvette run a prototype in LMPC, with road car styling cues, or GT 'stock'.

[gwyllion]

Mmm, David Richards said Aston Martin/Prodrive has some more stuff in the pipeline. They want to go for overall victory!!!!!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Mmm, David Richards said Aston Martin/Prodrive has some more stuff in the pipeline. They want to go for overall victory!!!!!

Haven't yet seen any post race quotes, so I'll take your word for it.

A coupe would be interesting for Aston and Corvette, going up against Audi, Peugeot, Honda, Porsche etc.

They also have potential customer cars for GT2 with the DBRS9 and ZO6.

[The359]

If they eliminate GT1 and make GT2 more like GT3, wont this present a safety issue? The speed differences between LMPs and GTs could become dangerous, quite frankly, especially under braking.

[cmk]

I think we'd be safe from a problem like that. One of the interesting ways that sportscar racing works is that everything sort of autocorrects when rules changes are made. The current GT1s were GT2s, before the great proto-like coupes were eliminated. The pace of the current GT1s steadily increased to fill the void, and GT2 cars were added from what had been a "GT3" class. If we lop the top off again this time, the lower two classes will be corrected to provide a suitable pace differentiation. What does that actually gain? Not much, a few years of slight slowing that gradually decreases...