[Tech Issue] The Sound Of The V6 Turbo PU..

[henners88]

The sport just wouldn't be here if it hadn't expanded. The sport we had in the 60's and 70's is unsustainable in today's world but F1 is in danger now of regressing due to its own greed and indeed is already showing signs. The new engines have a mixed reaction and it's a case of please the fans or the car companies. The car companies win because they are a major funder and important to the 'show'. Fans are just an accepted edition and I think that is taken for granted far too much. The new sound of the V6 to me is grossly underwhelming and I have to admit f1 no longer feels like the pinnacle of Motorsport. Whether that is really a bad thing is another story. The sport is a hobby, a pass time, something to watch and keep up to date with through habit for me and is hardly life or death. I think the engines are good in a way because it will force a proportion of fans to seek out other possibly more exciting forms of racing and that can only be a good thing IMO.

[GHOGH]

Is there any consideration for occupational safety rules? GP drivers used to go deaf from the noise from the engines e.g Jack Brabham
Surely the employers - the F1 car constructors have a duty of care to their employees - the f1 car drivers to provide a safe (as possible with current knowledge) and quiet working environment that should not negatively impact on their hearing.
Look at the Drayson video of the electric car http://youtu.be/q_cRqcbXAs4 . That is performance with reduced sound levels.
Though Mr Harris says the engineers should be able to build in pleasing noises.

[ciscotex]

Originally Posted by GHOGH

Is there any consideration for occupational safety rules? GP drivers used to go deaf from the noise from the engines e.g Jack Brabham

....Though Mr Harris says the engineers should be able to build in pleasing noises.

As a fellow forum rookie and with all due respect, I cannot disagree more strongly.

You ask about occupational safety rules, and cite a survivor of an era, when the mortality rate of the willing participants was in excess of 50%!

This is the era when I became a fan of F1. When the compulsion to compete was so strong as to be irresistable, even though participation likely meant serious sheet time, permanent disability, or worse. Yet larger than life characters played. And with each pointless death we analysed the causes and improved the cars and circuits to the point that it is possible to race out a career of 200 plus grands prix without seeing a hospital except to be treated for food poisoning.

But the sport is not the same. I don't believe motor racing would still qualify as one of Hemingway's three sports. Would Max Chilton be on a grid with a 50% mortality rate? Who of the current drivers would? Schumacher won 7 championships with only a broken leg, and gets gravely injured skiing at 15 mph.

Your talk about a right to not have to wear ear plugs is offensive to me when I think about those who willingly competed at the risk of their lives, and denigrates the memory of those who didn't survive. This is what participation in Grand Prix racing was. It was a deadly serious blood sport.

Now corporate shills cynically diddle the rules in a transparent attempt to be "green" or "road relevant" (while pushing the teams ever nearer the brink of insolvency] when that was never what Grand Prix racing was about. That is the bailiwick of sports car racing. And the lifelong pawns, er, fans of the gladiators are treated to what, in its current iteration, appears to have more in common with a video sim game than motor racing. Oh, wait, that's how the drivers prepare for the races these days.

In a nutshell, I don't believe motor racing is an arena in which one can raise a claim of right to occupational safety, thank God. The day it is will be the day I renounce my fandom. I recognize that my opinion is that of a dinosaur, but it was we dinosaurs who paved the way for the sport you enjoy today. And I believe a little historical perspective is useful when contemplating the evolution of the sport we both love.

Not that I have any particularly strongly held opinions on the subject.

Paul

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by ciscotex

Now corporate shills cynically diddle the rules in a transparent attempt to be "green" or "road relevant" (while pushing the teams ever nearer the brink of insolvency] when that was never what Grand Prix racing was about. That is the bailiwick of sports car racing.

Not that I have any particularly strongly held opinions on the subject.

Paul

I would agree that's what we have now, but F1 used to be a place for road car manufacturers to show off how they had the greatest technology and many races were on public roads. Now the few races that exist on public roads require a lot of fussing with the road because the cars have become so specialized they have trouble clearing a bump as tall as a pencil, they have become so far divorced from real cars. Also, the rules have created what are basically spec cars. Regulating "V" angle, bore spacing, bore diameter, CofG height etc?!!! What's that all about? Entertainment. Everybody in the same equipment, even more so than in Formula Ford. Formula Ford for a heck of a lot more money.

F1 now is purely entertainment. It's more wasteful of resources than anything outside of war, and it's all just for entertainment.

If teams are going to create lots of components that are going to end up in the rubbish bin without ever going on the car, shouldn't it be about something more than entertainment?

[ciscotex]

Originally Posted by miatanut

I would agree that's what we have now, but F1 used to be a place for road car manufacturers to show off how they had the greatest technology and many races were on public roads.

True, but I'm not quite old enough to remember the era of the road car manufacturers. I came in with the Garagistes. However, on my bucket list are drives of the Nordschliefe, the old Spa road circuit, and the route of the Targa Florio.

F1 is now is purely entertainment. It's more wasteful of resources than anything outside of war, and it's all just for entertainment.

Sure seems that way at times, but then again, these guys get all bent out of shape about winning and points and stuff, to the point of disrespecting the FIA's rules requiring the respecting of a dodgy flow meter.

Seems they can't decide whether it's a sport or entertainment, and, currently, I can't say that I think it's a great example of either.

Paul

[davyboy]

I've hearing loss in my left ear from years of racing 100cc karts, so I do have sympathy with those who feel Formula One can be damaging to those involved in it. To be fair my complaint wasn't about how loud it was, it was the type of sound. I've no problem with the volume being turned down but I do prefer the pitch of a wailing V12 to the burble of wet farts !

[Another Bob]

Welcome Paul,

Good to hear from another Dinasaur. Very early 80's for me. Wasn't possible to get to involved a great deal before then as this was when Australia first started live or delayed broadcasts on channel 9. But did follow Brabham as a kid. (young one at that)

Now to all the postings;
FI was never about road cars. Yes some technology filters down to road cars, but, nobody ever built a F1 car with the end game being, "yes, we car build this into next years sedan".

F1 was always about using every trick possible within the rules (sometimes very warped interpretations of the rules), but still using the rules to make the fastest possible car in that "formula".

Getting back to the sound of V6 turbos.

I don't mind them.

Main reason being you can hear other things going on, tyre sound, spectator response, and the different manufactures sound different!!!

And hey, most people watch it on TV, I didn't need ear muffs last year watching the 18000RPM V8's on TV?

Everybody is getting hysterical about them being to quiet, can't be bad in todays modern age mindset of NIMBY.

As far as PU specs go, I'm in the camp of whatever goes. Give them 100kg's of petrol to race, and hey use anything from a nuclear reactor to 26 horses strapped to a treadmill as the PU if that's what pushes your buttons.

The different engineering solutions and different engine notes is what I'd find exciting.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Another Bob

The different engineering solutions and different engine notes is what I'd find exciting.

Well you won't get that in F1. Everything is a few mm to the left or right of identical... so they all sound the same. You'll need to GTs or something similar to get proper variety.

[Another Bob]

I agree davyboy, but its a bit harder to follow the GT's.

A bit off topic, but to get that fix over the last couple of years I have made it to the Bathurst 12 hour when I can. Previous to that the 24.

I must admit, F1 has become real slick in getting itself out there to the masses. I find it harder to follow the GT's.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Another Bob

I agree davyboy, but its a bit harder to follow the GT's.

A bit off topic, but to get that fix over the last couple of years I have made it to the Bathurst 12 hour when I can. Previous to that the 24.

I must admit, F1 has become real slick in getting itself out there to the masses. I find it harder to follow the GT's.

The good thing about GTs is that there's great variety in the technology, look, sound etc... but that's not happened through legislation... but rather by the existence of a parallel road going programme and the need to drive sales there. I know I've mentioned it elsewhere, but maybe F1 needs a dose of this kind of medicine.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by davyboy

The good thing about GTs is that there's great variety in the technology, look, sound etc... but that's not happened through legislation... but rather by the existence of a parallel road going programme and the need to drive sales there. I know I've mentioned it elsewhere, but maybe F1 needs a dose of this kind of medicine.

Yup like the new Porsche 918 Spider!

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/cars/p...ml#item=312662

Great car!

F1 pushing the boundaries of technology


I think you and miatanut will enjoy this too Davyboy.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/at-the...st/index.shtml

[Another Bob]

Great links wnut.

You can see why Mark left to drive for Porsche.

On a serious note, the regs in GT seems to allow this sort of innovation.

In comparison F1 seem to be in the stone age scratching their heads trying to figure out how to work this technology.

F1 has been hamstrung for far to many years with restrictive regs which didn't allow real innovation.

The F1 regs jump a life time in technology and all we can talk about is how much we don't like the sound!!!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by wnut

Yup like the new Porsche 918 Spider!

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/cars/p...ml#item=312662

Great car!

F1 pushing the boundaries of technology


I think you and miatanut will enjoy this too Davyboy.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/at-the...st/index.shtml

Great post wnut ! Indeed... so much for F1 and new technologies !

[wnut]

[henners88]

Well Vettel was asked by @nicolaBILD what he thought of the new engine sound and he managed to sum it up in one word. That word started with 's' and finished with 't'. We can't say drivers these days are not honest lol. The PR machine thankfully allowed a glimpse into the honesty for a change

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Another Bob

F1 has been hamstrung for far to many years with restrictive regs which didn't allow real innovation.

I appreciate that the thrust of your post was something different but I just wanted to pick up on this point. To the best of my knowledge, over the past 25 years or so, Formula One hasn't been a platform to foster innovation but quite the opposite - an area were innovation is outlawed ! It only ever comes about when some clever engineer spots a loophole in the highly prescriptive regulations... and once the time, effort and expense have been sunk into to making it happen... it's immediately banned !

As we've already seen, the current technology isn't new and has been artificially put in place. It will be closely controlled and any innovation or evolution is likely to be outlawed... meaning the powertrain will become as much a dinosaur as the V10/V8 that preceded it.

[JeremySmith]

Sebastian Vettel gives his opinion…

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113107

[wolfhound]

I have just read Jonathan Noble's article in Autosport about all the noise about the noise. In it he makes a few valid points.
If we had continued with the V8's Renault would have left leaving just 2 manufacturers.
We would also have just seen a boreathon as Vettel would probably have won his 10th race in a row.
Pirelli's new hard tyres to avoid controversy would have also been part of that.

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...s-are-missing/

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by davyboy

As we've already seen, the current technology isn't new and has been artificially put in place.

I believe this is the very core of the issue. Not only are advanced and relevant technologies severely limited, homologated, equalized, standardized or even banned, but they are increasingly introduced as a consequence of regulatory command. In fact, not the drivers, teams and cars but the FIA and the regulations form Formula 1's true face.

[henners88]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Sebastian Vettel gives his opinion…

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113107

I should have posted that link with my post above really.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

I have just read Jonathan Noble's article in Autosport about all the noise about the noise. In it he makes a few valid points.
If we had continued with the V8's Renault would have left leaving just 2 manufacturers.
We would also have just seen a boreathon as Vettel would probably have won his 10th race in a row.
Pirelli's new hard tyres to avoid controversy would have also been part of that.

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...s-are-missing/

I disagree with almost everything he's said. In fact, you have to wonder whether he's on the FIA payroll such is his bias. Surely it's not beyond the imagination of the people who administer the series to figure out a way of making it more entertaining [aka quash Vettel's dominance] without taking us down the road of ridiculously complicated power trains that sound like farts and fitting penis noses to the cars. You'd be forgiven for thinking it was some kind of joke.

Formula One needed to be simplified and made cheaper. Instead it's been made more complicated and more expensive !

[davyboy]

Looks like Jenson Button's on the FIA payroll as well.

"As drivers we don't have an opinion of where the cars are in terms of sound and feel."

What a load of corporate hogwash. Sorry Jenson, but drivers are enthusiasts too... they do have an opinion on these matters.

[Sodemo]

What's good for F1 and what's good for the fans aren't necessarily the same thing.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Fake Sebastian Vettel

"It is s**t," declared Vettel who later added that he was frustrated by the fact that he can now hear the sounds of boos over the new quieter power plants. "For sure it is a trade off. now that im not on the podium i dont hear any boos there but because the new engines are so s**t i can hear them booing me everywhere else."

seriously though i think he hits it on the head when relating the story of his first experience at the age of 6. what will get the kids first is the sound.

the cars are far away, the drivers are not accessible, and the kit is expensive, and technical and political explanations for the change are literally over their heads. without the sound people/kids seeing this for the first time will likily wonder what all the fuss is about. f1 wont seem larger than life to them.

[andy666]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mot...at-engine.html

Talking of engine sounds , anyone had a go at this? Turns out I am not entitled to an opinion on the new power units , I scored 0/8 !