Penalties and their effectiveness.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I'm not sure that most of the 'incidents' that we've mostly been talking about in this thread can be classed as 'mistakes'.....

I would agree.
Qualifying at COTA indicated that the exclusions of laps are having an effect on driving behaviors.
From the SKY discussion pre-event it seems that some sanction is effective and that change and acceptance is there.

My earlier suggestion on another thread of a virtual wall....
Well think about this.
How would Max's one at turn 19 in qualifying have looked on replay when Max's car disappeared into the virtual wall which then exploded when he retook the track.
As a friend of mine remarked when talking about it, 'if it had been a real wall there would have been pieces of RB19 strewn for 250m'...

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Oh, and by the way, that wasn't supposed to be a dig at you, Chris, more emphasising that many minds think alike.

Not taken that way Mike. All good.

(And yes, we seem to now have quite a choir singing from our hym sheet )

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I'm not sure that most of the 'incidents' that we've mostly been talking about in this thread can be classed as 'mistakes'.....

I don't think there's a difference between a mistake and a risk that simply didn't come off. If you attack a corner with a 1 in 10 chance of running wide, is it a 'mistake' when you run wide?

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I don't think there's a difference between a mistake and a risk that simply didn't come off. If you attack a corner with a 1 in 10 chance of running wide, is it a 'mistake' when you run wide?

Well that’s the thing. Since the introduction of miles of tarmac runoff, drivers have been more inclined to take risks, knowing they can get away with it. And that is part of the problem

[Richard C]

Just want to mention that COTA turn 19 is one of those famous corners in which if allowed drivers will not stay within limits. Its a fast entry, the outside is not rough on the cars or significant risk of causing loss of control and running wide and off the circuit is faster than staying on the circuit. To stay on, you have to give it up and reduce speed on corner entry. Drivers want to take it flat (or nearly so).

This is what happens if you don't enforce track limits on that corner...


You can find many similar photos across multiple series. And what the drivers DO want to miss is that green section near that placard as that is a rough reentry back onto the circuit if you push it that far.

Richard

[Adam43]

But that doesn’t really matter. Do it or don’t do it. I’m easy, say you’re doing it and enforce it, or don’t. Let’s go racing.

It’s just a line. In the old days drivers didn’t need white lines they worked it out and drove to what the topography did. Like those green bits.

[S griffin]

Yes and I’m getting sick of hearing how bringing back the green stuff will lead to more accidents. The attrition rate has been lower at Monaco the last few years, so drivers know how to adapt

[NaBUru38]

About ignoring track limits, how about this: make the earphones play Gangnam Style or Despacito for the next 30 seconds. Drivers will keep on track no matter what!

[Rusty Nail]

Or Beethoven and they'd go to sleep!

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

About ignoring track limits, how about this: make the earphones play Gangnam Style or Despacito for the next 30 seconds. Drivers will keep on track no matter what!

Teams will train them and it will become a goal to hear it, any advantage possible.

It's amazing to me how it's a problem and then magically come the race no where near as many off track excursions. It's amazing that they try to feel out the corners in practice and then they learn the track and what they can get away with, it's like they're actually competent at driving and racing. And media guys are so bereft of things to make a controversy and get clicks this is the only story they can find. Hence the avoidance of any media story with penalty/off track in the titles.

[Richard C]

Regarding earlier talk of using cameras to monitor corners and how view and perspective is critical to being accurate, apparently with turn six at COTA they really could only see the exit of the corner. And drivers were regularly cutting that corner as they were getting away with it. The article calls out Albon and Perez.

I saw a post on Reddit that was saying Perez's onboard shows him cutting the corner 26 times during the race!

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/f...its-blindspot/

Part of the article calls out the opinion that you really can't use the onboard as evidence as it doesn't actually show the tires. So you can argue that you were still on the circuit.

Richard

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

It's amazing to me how it's a problem and then magically come the race no where near as many off track excursions. It's amazing that they try to feel out the corners in practice and then they learn the track and what they can get away with, it's like they're actually competent at driving and racing.

We all do the same, its part of testing. Some Marshal posts are more sensible than others. Francorchamps and Prenois are good examples for this. You have drivers briefing, marshals briefing and some others also called meetings. Would be more efficient if drivers and marshals briefings were held together. IMO.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Richard C

This is what happens if you don't enforce track limits on that corner...


You can find many similar photos across multiple series. And what the drivers DO want to miss is that green section near that placard as that is a rough reentry back onto the circuit if you push it that far.

Richard

Interesting picture. Interesting to note that they came back onto the track just before the green stuff, and I wonder why there is not more green stuff?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Interesting picture. Interesting to note that they came back onto the track just before the green stuff, and I wonder why there is not more green stuff?

All they need to do is install Armco right on the outside of the red and white striped parts, then they couldn't do it.

[chillibowl]

i've seen some pretty serious accidents at Monaco over the years...putting up barriers everywhere is not a valid option for me.

unless of course you enjoy cars being driven around well below their speed capabilities, lots of safety cars, debris and tire gunk being deflected back on track so everyone is literally driving on marbles the whole time!

seriously though...does anyone actually have any interest in watching 24 'Monacos' every year?

[Mike Harte]

But the trouble there at COTA, and some other circuits around the world, is that the drivers are creating their own alterations to the circuit. You can actually see the driver of the blue car in the background is actually aiming the car to cross over the stripy bit, following the tyre marks on the track.

They are making any effort to keep to the track limits, and that's totally wrong. One assumes that whoever designed the track that they created the corners to test the drivers, and just because drivers are unable to get round the corner as quickly as they want, they then abuse the limits.

[chillibowl]

i get it and they should do more to police it...like basically add one extra camera to that corner next year so they can monitor it better.

but for me it is still not so wrong as to warrant turning certain tracks/races into cage matches.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but for me it is still not so wrong as to warrant turning certain tracks/races into cage matches.

Now you're talking!

[Akrapovic]

I always thought one of the main reasons for the tarmac run off is for everything that's NOT F1. Track days, amateur race days etc. The other 51 weekends that aren't F1. So you're not destroying amateurs cars as much.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

seriously though...does anyone actually have any interest in watching 24 'Monacos' every year?

I confess no. But nor do I want to keep watching GPs where the drivers are incapable of driving on the track....

[Gerard C]

They can stay on the track, any track. I you feel Monaco is a good example, they do stay on the track just because of the walls/barriers. This does not mean that I'd like to see many Monaco's, once a year is enough.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I always thought one of the main reasons for the tarmac run off is for everything that's NOT F1. Track days, amateur race days etc. The other 51 weekends that aren't F1. So you're not destroying amateurs cars as much.

Other way round - the tarmac runoff areas are very much an "F1" thing - were introduced as the feeling at the time was that zero-droop, flat bottom cars were likely to simply skip or slide over gravel whereas tarmac allowed drivers to possibly regain some control, limit shunt severity with braking or spinning and due to tyres on tarmac, might slow the cars more than gravel.

Was all fairly controversial in the early days of doing it - circa 20 years ago.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Other way round - the tarmac runoff areas are very much an "F1" thing - were introduced as the feeling at the time was that zero-droop, flat bottom cars were likely to simply skip or slide over gravel whereas tarmac allowed drivers to possibly regain some control, limit shunt severity with braking or spinning and due to tyres on tarmac, might slow the cars more than gravel.

Was all fairly controversial in the early days of doing it - circa 20 years ago.

I agree with this. IIRC, I think another reason was that if cars didn't skip over gravel, then they would then be beached in a perfectly fine car and that driver's race was done (fans disappointed to see their hero out of action). So they wanted drivers to be able to go off, not crash and re-enter the track. Probably also to avoid race stoppage to recover the car.

I would say lots (most?) tracks that are not tailored for F1 (many being older legacy circuits) just have grass and curbs just outside of the circuit white lines. An example being the uphill esses at my home track VIR...



Richard

[Mike Harte]

Talking about going off into the kitty litter, does anyone else remember when Hamilton went off and got beached, waited with the engine running whilst the car was lifted out (I see to recall that rather than being towed out) and he was permitted to carry on racing because the engine was still running?

I'm probably wrong, but something tells me in Brazil.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Talking about going off into the kitty litter, does anyone else remember when Hamilton went off and got beached, waited with the engine running whilst the car was lifted out (I see to recall that rather than being towed out) and he was permitted to carry on racing because the engine was still running?

I'm probably wrong, but something tells me in Brazil.

2007 European GP, Nürburgring. Jenson Button, Adrian Sutil, Nico Rosberg, Scott Speed and Vitantonio Liuzzi all had to retire because they were not running when the Red Flag was shown. Hamilton had been recovered from the gravel and was running a lap down, so was permitted to take the restart.