Continental Tire SportsCar Challenge

[Coach Ep]

Agreed, P3 should go either TUSC or IMSA Lites (as top class, not a replacement for the current smaller cars).

[pablocomics]

Ligier said that their P3 is barely 2/3 seconds slower than their P2, isn't it a bit too much fast to run with the ST class?

[wdave0]

P# is not going into CTSCC. One quick way for IMSA to fix the GS problem (it wouldn't be a problem for ST either) would be to enforce pro-am as they do in PC. This would limit the overwhelming effect of the factory teams. Not perfect - but better for the business model of the privateers.

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by wdave0

P# is not going into CTSCC. One quick way for IMSA to fix the GS problem (it wouldn't be a problem for ST either) would be to enforce pro-am as they do in PC. This would limit the overwhelming effect of the factory teams. Not perfect - but better for the business model of the privateers.

How is that going to fix the problem? The only lineup it effects is the new Mustang with Johnson and Maxwell. Both Matt Bell and Andrew Davis are technically ranked as Silvers last I checked.

-mike

[YZFrider]

Originally Posted by Rcz

But as said before, it's just cheaper to run in PWC right now. No tires changes, a smaller pit crew, just one driver. If I was a small team it would a no brainer where I go.

This is where I scratch my head. Yes logically, sprint races are cheaper to run then endurance races. But 2 or 3 seasons ago, we had double or triple the size of the GS class. Were the costs not roughly the same? As far as I know, the races themselves haven't changed too much form then until now have they? PWC GTS was around then as well...

After doing some reading a couple of other sites have mentioned similar domination from previous cars for GS and that the correct measures were taken to BOP accordingly. But were there the shrinking fields back then like there are now? What's changed?

I also found this aritcle.. always interesting to look back. After reading this it sort of hits hard the expectation they had for this season vs the reality
http://www.foxsports.com/motor/story...in-2015-102714


Edit: After reading the article again, maybe the clues for the drop in numbers are in there. I didn't realize there was a goal of one manufacturer, one model homologation.

[Speed-King]

Edit: After reading the article again, maybe the clues for the drop in numbers are in there. I didn't realize there was a goal of one manufacturer, one model homologation

That's a very common thing these days, though. Especially in GT3 and GT4.

I think one aspect that hasn't been covered very much on here so far is that while Conti Challenge was run under the Grand Am umbrella, it was one of very few series sanctioned by that body and as such they were treated quite well in terms of scheduling and just overall attention from the powers that be.

Under "new IMSA" they are just one of a whole number of support series and as such they've probably slipped quite a bit down the internal totem pole, with more attention being given to the Porsches and Lambos...

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

How is that going to fix the problem? The only lineup it effects is the new Mustang with Johnson and Maxwell. Both Matt Bell and Andrew Davis are technically ranked as Silvers last I checked.

-mike

I did say "not perfect" but that's worse than I thought. I missed the silvers.
It has been sad watching the fields shrink fro 70-80 to 40 with most of the difference in GS.

[Coach Ep]

Has the merger of Grand-Am and ALMS (IMSA) played a part as well? Did they add races to the calendar?

[HORNDAWG]

Some cost reductions for CTSC ....

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/ctscc/i...cuts-for-2016/








L.P.

[seanyb505]

Well this series just finished it's first 2016 session. I really enjoyed getting into this last year. Not feeling so optimistic now. Top class looks to be the Mustang and Cayman GT4 class. And a lone 997 911.

ST never did it for me. Something about Civics racing just doesn't get my blood pumping, and with so much of the class Caymans...the grouping of cars doesn't make sense.

I can easily see Multimatic steamrolling this year.

[BullMan]

I thought the 997 911 was homologated out of competition. They certainly talked like the last race for that thing was PLM.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

ST never did it for me. Something about Civics racing just doesn't get my blood pumping

How about this?



Interesting touring cars look like this:

[Speed-King]

Naw, the less aero the better the racing...

And there really isn't a place for cars like this in CTSCC.

[nasportscar]

CTSCC Roar Data http://nasportscar.com/kevins-analys...ar-at-daytona/

[Deleted]

Daytona grid:

2012 - 81x
2013 - 64x
2014 - 68x
2015 - 56x
2016 - 37x

[Rcz]

Blame other cheaper series.

Mainly the GTS class in PWC

No tire changes
No pit crew
One driver
Shorter races.


There's just more better financial reasons just to race in GTS

some people say the Conti seris needs to allow FIA GT4 cars, but then what? The GTS class allows GT4 too. The problem isn't because of expensive cars, it's because of expensive races.

[AJA]

Originally Posted by Rcz

Blame other cheaper series.

Mainly the GTS class in PWC

No tire changes
No pit crew
One driver
Shorter races.


There's just more better financial reasons just to race in GTS

some people say the Conti seris needs to allow FIA GT4 cars, but then what? The GTS class allows GT4 too. The problem isn't because of expensive cars, it's because of expensive races.

Having run GS in '14 and GTS in '15 here are some thoughts.

Its both expensive cars and expensive races. PWC GTS isn't much cheaper when the tires cost twice as much. Hotels are not getting cheaper, truck travel is more of a hassle with less time the truck drivers can drive per day, etc.

Problem 1, CTSC race event lengths. They grew by 1 to 2 days. A few years ago Daytona was a load in on Wednesday, Race Friday. Now load in on Tuesday. Sebring, and Petit, again happen during the work week. A lot of guys working for teams have a normal job. The series does seem to be trying to shorten the events.

Problem 2, license fees to go run a one off race, as well as equipment is now out of hand. Pit crews need full nomex underwear, plus high dollar fire suits, helmets, shoes, gloves, etc, etc. Plus the cost of a credential. Local or small club teams can't run a local race without dumping tons of money into it.

Problem 3, car costs. When the Z28 Camaro came in (yes ) it was way too quick, way too expensive, and drove people away. GM didn't read the rule book, they built a car they wanted, and the idiot who knew nothing about CTSC let it in. So the most expensive car was also the fastest, and the rulebook got re-written for it. In ST, at least the Cayman was the cheapest car to build (what I was told by a couple people who built them) so ST hasn't suffered the same fate.

Problem 4, one off cars specifically built for CTSC. When they had the entries they could command a car that was special, or had unique build rules. Now, people with a car that is close to their rules, but something maybe too far, or expensive to change back, go find someplace else to spend the money.

Problem 5, reaction of balancing the cars. We pulled out before the last 2 races in GS in '14 due to the slowness to respond to the speed of the camaro.
They did make changes, but only a few days before the event, but still, we would have had to commit to going to an event without knowing if we would have a chance at running up front.

Problem 6, release the entry list earlier. People sitting on the fence may be able to throw something together and have their decision swayed if they know how many are going to show up.

Problem 7, you want real cost savings, have a tire set limit. Limit it to 4 new sets per weekend. You don't need to go out on stickers for every session like some teams did. In 2014, at VIR ( race 10) we had used something like 75 sets of tires between our 2 cars for the season, Stevenson had used 65-70 sets of tires PER CAR up to that point.

GT4 IMO isn't the future for GS. Its pretty hard to balance and race 2500 lb purpose built kit/racecars with 3500 lb street cars turned racecar.

[Rcz]

Interesting, it's nice to have some insight from someone that actually run in the series.

[jjvincent]

Never posted here before but I'll even expand on what AJ said as we've raced together for many years in this series. A few other things.

1. Being lied to. In 2012 and 2013 we were told that absolutely nothing was going to change in Conti. By the time 2014 was coming around the corner, we found out that IMSA decided to monkey with the series. With 50 different tech and comp bulletins coming out two weeks before the test days and another 50 during the event. All on what was changing. By the time of the race event, people were already fed up.

2. Fining the teams left and right because of the pit rule changes instituted during race weekend. All of a sudden, everything we had been doing since 1985 all of a sudden changed and if you did something wrong, $500 fine. I bet at least $10K in fines were levied for simple things like not having the correct socks on to leaving the pits too early during practice. People upset by point #1, were really upset by point #2.

3. Not treating teams like customers. IMSA wouldn't work with teams at all if they were in a predicament (i.e. we had to put a sick driver in a car because they wouldn't allow a last minute substitution). GA would help teams out because they knew you could go somewhere else. IMSA's attitude, if you don;t like it, go somewhere else.

4. Conti teams were relegated to a third world country status in the paddock. In the past, we worked with Rolex teams (because GA made us work together). In case many don't know, Conti teams have to make pit stops, which require the same exact equipment as running a Rolex team. So, we worked together. For example we'd use SDR's pit box and steps. They move their other equipment so we can bring in fuel rigs, fuel caddys, air guns, hoses, crew and tire carts. It took a 5 minute conversation and no problems (we'd help each other move equipment back and forth).

In IMSA, teams like Corvette were the biggest jerks on the planet. They wouldn't move a thing. It took people like me 2 hours to find the right person and then they would lie and promise to move things but only move about 30% of what they'd say. When you are trying to pit two cars (one ST and one GS) in the same pit, you have two fuel rigs, two tire carts, two sets of air guns. Seems that most ex ALMS teams didn't give a rats butt that we had to race. Then they would start telling us to move our stuff 30 minutes before our race is to end. Last thing I need to deal with is that as trying to win a race or make it on mileage is a bit more important.

IMSA didn't help us out at all. we were left to fight it out.

5. Laguna in 2014. Hands down the single event where the straw broke the camels back. From all teams being yelled at during the Crew Chief meeting (because we were not happy with the situation) to a paddock where two car teams had to work under an EZ-UP, unhook the truck and the trailer door had to be closed. If you wanted to feed the crew, no room for that. If you wanted to entertain clients, not going to happen (I know two teams pulled out at the end of 2014 just because of that). Top that off with point #4, it was the tipping point.

6. I knew what was going to happen in 2013 with the P&M Camaro because I was on a Camaro team. GA rejected the car but all of a sudden when the whole tech department from Conti morphed into IMSA, the car was greenlighted. It was a slap in the face to all of the existing teams. Car was not even close to the rules but allowed to run. I guess GM is too big to fail.

7. Changing how the races were run. In addition to changing the pit rules, IMSA pretty much spent all of 2014 rewriting the rules on how a race is run. By the time Road Atlanta came around, it was much closer back to the way GA had it. It was a moving target that hurt many teams.

8. Tech. Not one single car passed when they showed up at Daytona. Many of these cars have been around for 5 years but now they were considered no good. Then when you have to wait until 5pm for your turn and they determine what you need to change (even though it was perfectly fine for 5 years) and it takes 3 hours, the crew is none too pleased. Plus, things like fuel capacity check changed at least 5 times during the season with many at VIR getting nailed after the race because the method of the capacity check changed but the team were not informed.

9. Better off going and spending ST money to drive Spec Lambo. You drive a much cooler car than a Cayman or a Mustang. You and your friends get treated like royalty at the Lambo hospitality. Even Ferrari Challange is a bargain. There's a reason why they have the largest Ferrari Challenge field at Daytona this weekend yet Conti is the smallest in history.

10. PWC TC is the best value going. Six events with three 40 minute races per event (one is rolling and the other two are standing start). ST cars with splitters and wings. Three sets of tires. You get around 5 hours track time per event. Two car team, three crew. PWC treats TC the same as GTS and GT. Plus same streaming online and you get coverage for your broadcast (not only cover a faster class).

With the Camaro gone, it really is not as much about the cars but it is about how when GS teams spend $600K/car/season, when they are not happy on many fronts (look what AJ just wrote), they walk away. Right now, the numbers speak for themselves. 8 GS cars at what was the largest number for entries for the season. 2 of those GS cars entered are doing a one off. Now you are down to 6 full time cars (that might even be 5 if what I've heard) and a bunch of one offs. There's been a 73% drop in GS entries from 2014-2016. That's a fact. Imagine running a business and losing 73% of your customers in two years.

[Mike Hedlund]

Wow, thanks for those 2 posts AJ and JJ! A lot of that is news to me.. and I've always been interested in racing in the Conti series.

-mike

[TzeiTzei]

But wait a minute. All this time I've been told that EVERYTHING is Nascar's fault.

e. and thanks for the info guys. That was a good read.

[Akrapovic]

I thought the IMSA Live video on RLM covered these races? No live coverage it says??

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I thought the IMSA Live video on RLM covered these races? No live coverage it says??

http://www.fanschoice.tv/watch-live/imsa/weathertech

[J Jay]

I'm not too sure about the Mini's implementation of DRS, that might need some tuning...

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by J Jay

I'm not too sure about the Mini's implementation of DRS, that might need some tuning...