WTCC Equalisation... - Page 5

Sodemo · 3 May 2009, 18:25 (Ref:2454701)

At what point do BMW start waving their arms and say "give us some weight breaks"?

stedevil · 3 May 2009, 19:15 (Ref:2454722)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodemo

At what point do BMW start waving their arms and say "give us some weight breaks"?

Nigel over at TCT did a good overview of the rules for weights

http://www.touringcartimes.com/news.php?id=3344

Why Chevy ended up with -20kg instead of -10 or 0 from the base weight is still a bit confusing though. Nobody seems to know for sure.

helterskelter · 4 May 2009, 01:10 (Ref:2454880)

Quote:

Originally Posted by stedevil

I can pick at least 10 things from as many posts by you in this very thread that is offensive towards me. I just prefer not to constantly whine like a 5-year-old about how evil other people are to me.

No, pick them, I really want to see them. We should all be friends here, you treat me as if I were stupid. It's not moaning, it's demanding some respect.

helterskelter · 4 May 2009, 01:23 (Ref:2454885)

Quote:

Originally Posted by werner

Huff may not have been able to pass Muller, he did pass other Seat-drivers on his way from 8th to third. So the Seat's are passable. Muller is not World Champion without a reason: he may be a good racingdriver, able to defend a position? I'm sure he was very annoyed by his mistake in the first race, and very determined not to let that happen again.
If you only want the fastest driver to win, you should go watch rally.

Have you seen Rob's moves? He passed Monteiro on the first lap as he came out of the first corner very slowly as a consequence of Huff's attempt after the start. In fact, Monteiro dropped down to behind Priaulx after that.
The other Leòn he passed was Tarquini, but you have to take into consideration that Gabriele said he had problems with his brakes.
And yes, Yvan is a great driver and you will hardly pass him, even if you are Rob Huff. Were Rickard Rydell there, he would have surely been a hard guy to overtake, too. Yvan Muller's talent is very important for Seat, I always said that Yvan - Seat Sport (Oreca) - Leòn TDi were the WINNING PACKAGE, meaning the Frenchman is definitely an important factor.

helterskelter · 4 May 2009, 08:20 (Ref:2455002)

Gabriele also said his 'Engine wasn’t perfect after qualifying which affected my top speed today. It didn’t affect me too much in Race 1 but in Race 2 I couldn’t fight at the front.'

stedevil · 4 May 2009, 09:53 (Ref:2455063)

Quote:

Originally Posted by helterskelter

No, pick them, I really want to see them. We should all be friends here, you treat me as if I were stupid. It's not moaning, it's demanding some respect.

Off topic comment alert
I have to type this or my brain will explode!

Here comes some of the hail of offensive personal attacks from you towards me in this very thread. I'm not claiming I'm much better, but I don't complain endlessly about someone else while doing the exact same to them. So if you are going to continue to claim how you dont write offensive things to others, maybe you should actually start not doing that?
---
As usual you act like you know everything
unpolite of you... ...you get nervous talking about this stuff...
You always see what you want to see in what other people say, so you can attack them.
I'm too correct to be as petty as you.
As usual you say untrue things to try to make your point
You are never respectful of any of those who think differently from you
I try to use moderation and you try to offend
probably you don't even bother reading
I hope SEAT are not as antisportive as you.
As usual, you don't know things but still you talk about it, just to attack and offend people.
Think before talking, which you don't seem to do much often.
if you don't respect anyone I suppose you also don't have the sensibility to stick to a brand and a driver.
as usual you talk without knowing.
Let's see how long it takes before you connect your brain with your hands when writing and look at the standings
...pretentious... ...offensive, as usual from you, though.
Seems like you don't know what politeness is
you are lacking the main knowledges to understand the climate... ...I'd need you to come to my university and attend some courses before.
You think I'm trying to look superior compared to you, which is an inferiority complex, obviously

Thanks for reading, you've been a wonderful audience. Don't forget to try the veal and tip your waitress. We now return you to the topic

stedevil · 4 May 2009, 10:08 (Ref:2455072)

Quote:

Originally Posted by helterskelter

The other Leòn he passed was Tarquini, but you have to take into consideration that Gabriele said he had problems with his brakes.

All drivers of all cars had problems with the brakes.

Meanwhile, I counted all passes made during the races, excluding people retiring etc
SEAT TDI passing any other cartype: 5 times in total
SEAT TDI being passed by any other cartype: 6 times in total
So the Super top speed completely unpassable SEAT TDI gets passed more times that is manages to pass others on a track that is the most high speed track of the year (79% full throttle). Yet you get offended when I point out that you are biased.

helterskelter · 4 May 2009, 15:36 (Ref:2455236)

Quote:

Originally Posted by stedevil

All drivers of all cars had problems with the brakes.

Meanwhile, I counted all passes made during the races, excluding people retiring etc
SEAT TDI passing any other cartype: 5 times in total
SEAT TDI being passed by any other cartype: 6 times in total
So the Super top speed completely unpassable SEAT TDI gets passed more times that is manages to pass others on a track that is the most high speed track of the year (79% full throttle). Yet you get offended when I point out that you are biased.

SEAT had Monteiro who was passed at the start and Tarquini claimed that he had engine problems. Finally, Rydell drove none of the races and Genè only drove one. A pretty special situation. Oh, poor SEATs, they only had the places from 2nd to 5th in Race 1 and all of their cars in the points, one of which on the podium. What a disaster as a weekend... But I'm biased

As requested by the moderators, I'm not going to discuss the 'offenses' I would have thrown at you.

awrb · 4 May 2009, 16:59 (Ref:2455294)

Quote:

Originally Posted by stedevil

All drivers of all cars had problems with the brakes.

SEAT TDI passing any other cartype: 5 times in total
SEAT TDI being passed by any other cartype: 6 times in total

WOW!!! Eleven passes in 2 races!!! What a weekend.

helterskelter · 4 May 2009, 17:07 (Ref:2455298)

Quote:

Originally Posted by awrb

WOW!!! Eleven passes in 2 races!!! What a weekend.

Well no, there are also the passes between Chevy and BMW, the passes between teammates and the indipendents' passes. Not just 11

awrb · 4 May 2009, 17:26 (Ref:2455310)

Oh yeah of course.

Incidentally, the fact that Rydell drove no races and Gene only one is irrelevant, since that meant no one could have overtaken them either.

stedevil · 4 May 2009, 19:41 (Ref:2455403)

Quote:

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Oh, poor SEATs, they only had the places from 2nd to 5th in Race 1 and all of their cars in the points, one of which on the podium. What a disaster as a weekend... But I'm biased

Well you are biased. Yes, Seat had a good weekend and was clearly faster than BMW on this track. Cleland summed it up pretty good on Eurosport when he said "If SEAT could have designed their own optimal track this is what it would have looked like". But still people, including BMWs, were able to pass them, and on a tram race track no less.

What also shows your bias is eg how you wrote "Funny move from Sergio indeed. It ruined Andy's chances."

Sure, colliding with Sergio caused a lot of extra damage, but realistically, how big chances did Andy have to get higher up the grid than 9th after demolishing his front on his own by going off?

In any case, if next weekend equalization would be determined only by this weekend, Seat and Chevy would have +40kg and BMW -10kg. To me that sais that what I see on the track matches pretty well with the numbers the formula spits out.

helterskelter · 6 May 2009, 09:22 (Ref:2456320)

Quote:

Originally Posted by stedevil

Sure, colliding with Sergio caused a lot of extra damage, but realistically, how big chances did Andy have to get higher up the grid than 9th after demolishing his front on his own by going off?

I repeat, look at Andy's car. The damage was virtually none at the front, terrible on the rear. Anyway, if Sergio hadn't hit him, he wouldn't have had to get help from the stewards to restart, which caused him not to be in the Q2. Finally, he could have started from 8th or 7th at least, and I'm not counting the possible slipstreams between him and Jorg, because there was Engstler who was clearly slower and had that wonderful quali due to a great slipstream and Menu who got penalized. Had he started from 8th, assuming that he was better than Engstler only, defended it, wouldn't he have started at the front? Yes, this shows I'm biased. It's so funny

Anyway, Chevy are going to get a +60kg ballast next weekend. Another good present to SEAT. Actually, I hope it rains in Pau so at least we're going to see some show. I've already given up in supporting anyone for the crown...

stedevil · 6 May 2009, 11:16 (Ref:2456378)

Quote:

Originally Posted by helterskelter

he could have started from 8th or 7th at least

Well, he wasn't going to end up ahead of the Chevies and SEATs, so the absolute best he could hope for was 7th in case hitting the tirewall didnt do too much damage for him to be competitive vs the 2 other BMWs. So max 7th instead of 9th out of a 24 car grid. Yet your opinion is that Sergio RUINED it for Andy, not to mention that the accident wouldn't even have happened if Andy wouldn't have gone off the track as well all by himself.

And it does clearly show your bias. Every time Andy doesnt win, for whatever reason, it's an absolute outrage and you start pointing fingers at who/what "ruined" it for Andy. If it actually is relevant or not is not important for your scape goat hunt.

As for nobody but SEAT having a chance at Pau, I believe you are wrong. I guess we will see soon enough.

helterskelter · 6 May 2009, 12:12 (Ref:2456427)

Quote:

Originally Posted by stedevil

Well, he wasn't going to end up ahead of the Chevies and SEATs, so the absolute best he could hope for was 7th in case hitting the tirewall didnt do too much damage for him to be competitive vs the 2 other BMWs. So max 7th instead of 9th out of a 24 car grid. Yet your opinion is that Sergio RUINED it for Andy, not to mention that the accident wouldn't even have happened if Andy wouldn't have gone off the track as well all by himself.

And it does clearly show your bias. Every time Andy doesnt win, for whatever reason, it's an absolute outrage and you start pointing fingers at who/what "ruined" it for Andy. If it actually is relevant or not is not important for your scape goat hunt.

As for nobody but SEAT having a chance at Pau, I believe you are wrong. I guess we will see soon enough.

I have NEVER written that nobody but SEAT has a chance in Pau. I hope for rain because it's a boring track for those who watch the races, normally, except if there's some rain. I don't think we'll see too many passes.
Sorry, but where did Jorg start? Because, if I remember correctly, he collected 6 points starting from 8th, keeping the place and starting on the front row at the 2nd race, which Andy could have done if that accident hadn't happened. Having said that, of course HE WOULD NEVER HAVE WON and that BMWs are slow at the moment. But I think we can all agree that Hernandez hitting him was no help and it ruined the chances of him getting 2 good races. And yes, in a race in which the best laps from the 1st to the 11th placed are of max 0,5s two places on the grid matter a lot! Do I have to remind you that he remained stuck behind Bennani and Jorg? Had he completed even 1 slow lap, he'd have qualified 8th and there would have been much less chance of it to happen. Is that outrageous?
What probably isn't clear is that I would love to see the best 2 drivers (always IMO) of the Wtcc fight at the same level. That would be great fun, and then win the best. I would add Rob Huff, too.

stedevil · 6 May 2009, 13:13 (Ref:2456472)

Quote:

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I have NEVER written that nobody but SEAT has a chance in Pau. I hope for rain because it's a boring track for those who watch the races, normally, except if there's some rain. I don't think we'll see too many passes.

I apologize for jumping to conclusions. And I completely agree, Pau is a crappy track. Id rather see them 3 times at Brno than once at Pau.

Quote:

Had he completed even 1 slow lap, he'd have qualified 8th

You are making another huge assumptions here, that Müller would still not bother to drive back and change his tire instead of pulling off with 9-10 minutes left of Q2. Plenty of option to set a new better time if he thought he had something to fight for. With Andy out he just didnt bother.

awrb · 6 May 2009, 13:22 (Ref:2456476)

Priaulx COULD have won had Hernandez not hit him. He COULD have got pole in that qualifying session and gone on to win race one. He COULD have done that at Puebla and Curitiba as well. He just didn't.

And as for him being stuck behind Bennani and Jorg, if he was faster than them, he'd have overtaken them.

werner · 6 May 2009, 13:40 (Ref:2456485)

Especially as the petrol-seat probably is the worst car to have a Marrakech; poor aerodynamics ánd low power. The lower weight will have helped on the brakes though.

helterskelter · 6 May 2009, 22:29 (Ref:2456836)

Well, seeing Coronel's laptimes in practice I don't think so... In fact, I don't remember if it was Martin Haven or Cleland, but one of them said 'Bennani's performance is evidence that SEAT could still be competitive with the Tfsi, given that independants have such a good level against BMWs and Chevys'.
Ok, same thing for Huff then: he wasn't faster than Yvan? Of course Priaulx didn't, and anyway I didn't bring the subject after this topic, because it's racing and it happens. But, without doubt, the further you start of the lead the worse it is for your chances of having a good race, ain't it?
Stedevil, looks like there was a little more than just a puncture on Jorg's car. I heard that the suspension was involved, too. Anyway, it's unrealistic to think that BMW Team Germany said 'OK, we've had a puncture, let's not go out and fight for a better position, we'd best stay in the garage and have a good tasty sandwich with Jorg and Augusto.' If you can go out, you go out, if you can't you stay in the pits. Why stay in the garage?
Jorg would SURELY have gone faster than Engstler and gained a place, and thay had nothing to lose in going out on the track after having changed the tyre.

stedevil · 6 May 2009, 22:45 (Ref:2456845)

Quote:

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Anyway, it's unrealistic to think that BMW Team Germany said 'OK, we've had a puncture, let's not go out and fight for a better position, we'd best stay in the garage and have a good tasty sandwich with Jorg and Augusto.' If you can go out, you go out, if you can't you stay in the pits. Why stay in the garage?

Because you want to save a set of brand new tires for either this weekends race or NEXT weekend instead of wasting them for no gain?

helterskelter · 6 May 2009, 22:53 (Ref:2456851)

Quote:

Originally Posted by stedevil

Because you want to save a set of brand new tires for either this weekends race or NEXT weekend instead of wasting them for no gain?

To pass Engstler he didn't need a set of new tires, once everything was lost, if they wanted to save the tires they could have put on an already used set of tyres or just replace the one who had a puncture, one who had been used during quali of course, and pass Engstler, who was consistently slower.
OK, no fight for pole position, but gaining one place was absolutely possible.

stedevil · 6 May 2009, 23:14 (Ref:2456859)

You make it sound like Engstler was behind by a country mile. He wasn't. His Q1 times was 0,15 behind Jörg and 0,25 behind Prialux but eg 0,20 ahead of Farfus and 0,40 ahead of Porteiro. It wasn't just an accident he made it into Q2, he was on par with the factory drivers and heads an shoulders ahead of other indy BMW drivers also in warmup and the races.

helterskelter · 6 May 2009, 23:30 (Ref:2456866)

Quote:

Originally Posted by stedevil

You make it sound like Engstler was behind by a country mile. He wasn't. His Q1 times was 0,15 behind Jörg and 0,25 behind Prialux but eg 0,20 ahead of Farfus and 0,40 ahead of Porteiro. It wasn't just an accident he made it into Q2, he was on par with the factory drivers and heads an shoulders ahead of other indy BMW drivers also in warmup and the races.

Actually Engstler was 0.9s behind Monteiro, the first works driver. The German has admitted that he made into Q2 only because of a great slipstream, he was nowhere near the pace to come 10th. You can read his words in the official Wtcc press release

stedevil · 6 May 2009, 23:46 (Ref:2456873)

Quote:

Originally Posted by helterskelter

The German has admitted that he made into Q2 only because of a great slipstream, he was nowhere near the pace to come 10th.

Exactly like Andy you mean? Or you don't remember writing this?

"The 'bright idea' seems to have worked, since Andy never really had nearly the pace to be in the Top Ten, and yet he did thanks to Alex's tow."

stedevil · 7 May 2009, 06:34 (Ref:2456956)

BTW Jörg also seems to belong to the group that "only got by because of drafting" "Bis zu diesem Zeitpunkt war ich Elfter und somit nicht für das letzte, Top-Ten-Quali, qualifiziert. Ich habe mich dann hinter einem Seat gehängt und konnte mich im Windschatten auf Platz acht schieben." http://www.jorg-muller.com/index.htm
And if I got it right, then what happened to Jörgs wheel was that the tire was forced off the rim, so no worse damage than a puncture.