Crossle 9S test day and 2011 Race Challenge.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by andy97

But the point is that the Crossles have joined in with an existing series, the Chevron GR8 Challenge, to ensure bigger grids. Its not just 7 starters for the race, its 7 Crossles within a bigger grid.

Adding four Chevrons doesn't really make it a big grid!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Maybe the "issue"- if it is one- is that the cars are being talked about on a forum titled "Historic Racing Today" ?

Agreed! But I guess they are hybrids in a way as they are clearly based on the original cars (& Lola T70s continuation cars run in historic events) - its a grey area, I suppose & the cars are likely to appeal to those with an interest in historic racing who maybe remember the originals.

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Adding four Chevrons doesn't really make it a big grid!

Also Agree! Now, I'm the last person to defend very small grids but it's not the Crossle's fault - they regularly get 8-10 cars out so they are doing their bit - and people often talk about amalgamating grids if entries are small & the Crossles & Chevron's have done just that.

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

There's probably only one or two genuine historic cars, the rest are continuations. These cars were already part of a series that they were dominating but for some reason they wanted to go it alone. So now that makes two series that have half the cars each.

That's politics for you, but I'm just a spectator when it comes to this stuff so I'm not aware of the details. I just love these types of cars & want to see them race. Maybe the fact that they were "dominating" caused the issue?

[john ruston]

Back to Replica ,fake,pretend etc ,etc debate.

It's either Historic or pretend racing.

The continuation cars should not have been included in Historic Racing.

In the long term it will screw it up.

My opinion.

Professional organisers rather than clubs running race series.They want the money

Seems races for fake cars(ref Jenkinson) only are a good idea.

[911thillclimber]

I'm just a hillclimb competitor, so all the real/fake stuff is not so serious, but if you want to race in the Historic classes then your car MUST be pre 1971. There is a class for pre 85 too.

If your car is outside these date, ie younger, then you can go into the normal classes for the engine size and car type.

Dead simple and it works.
There is considerable interest in historic racers now in the UK, i will spend Sunday at Olton and monday at Mallory watching them.

The Chevron/Crossle is great, all continuations or new and to me seems to be a very good combo. I'm sure the spectators loves seeing them hounding each other.

If this works why not?

Those cars racing at Classic Le Mans? Change the Crossle engine to a twin cam and seems good to me because of the 'truth' of the car's origin and manufacture.

The continuationcars only exist because the real cars are silly prices ot so modified to be away from the original 'truth'.
Now, there is a debate, when the original has been modded away from the original, just when is that car 'wrong'?

My Lola t 492 is exactly in this 'class' highly modified and now too far away to be a Lola t 492 in truth.

The continuation is then the better original car! (in the case of the Crossle, the Chris Smith B6's and the Lola T70 etc etc.)

[eamonn ledwidge]

Gentlemen

My responses to your various contributions.

Mike Bell:

Maybe the "issue"- if it is one- is that the cars are being talked about on a forum titled "Historic Racing Today"


This thread is in Historic Racing today for the following reasons:

1) The Crossle Challenge is open to all Crossle sports racing cars of any type or year. This includes, 5S, 7S, 9S and the S2000 cars 37S, 42S & 47S. There are very few of the early cars in the British Isles, we have seen a couple this year and hopefully more next year.

2) At the launch of the Challenge I consulted Tim Falce, a Moderator on TT ( whom I have known for some years and has kindly provided us with some pics) as to the correct location for our thread. He advised Historic Racing today, adding the comment - if anybody asks, just refer them to me.


Tim Falce

As Tim has stated, we were part of another series in which our cars did rather well. There was perhaps some latent resentment to the success in certain quarters, but it was not material to us. The series was struggling to maintain numbers and was increasing being merged with kit cars, we did not like that. Tim's own Jaguar based group had already largely decamped, for their own good reasons. The Crossle owners felt that it was time to look elsewhere and seek a better setup which offered longer races and doubleheader meetings. We believed we had a deal with another series which was withdrawn at short notice in February of this year.

I struck a deal with Chevron & BARC to co-join our challenge with the Chevron GR8 challenge. There was some synergy here, as Derek Bennett had brought his early cars to Ireland in 1965, racing at Kirkistown, Dunboyne and Phoenix Park. He struck up a rapport with John Crossle and several of the Irish Crossles journeyed to UK in the next couple of years. Bennett and other notable Chevron drivers sharing 9S drives at the 1966 Oulton Park Gold Cup.

Chevron had 10/12 of these cars available, a modern GT, but with very similar power/weight ratio to the 9S and running on slicks. Numerically it looked very good with both groups planning to field a similar number of cars. To date we have had some exciting racing. For their own reasons, Chevron have never produced the numbers at race meetings and we have always outnumber them at meetings. Communications are poor and we only know their entry numbers when they turn up.

We are cracking on with increasing our own numbers and are hopeful of adding 5 or 6 new runners next year.

Derwent

With respect, you have missed the point - we co-share races with the Chevron GR8 Challenge, so the numbers I have quoted are our own entrants for the Brands meeting. We never know how many runners Chevron will have until the arrival of the monster truck, awning etc.

There are 3 early cars amongst our ranks this year and hopefully 3 more coming out next year. We have no control over where they race and this weekend there will be a 7S and 9S at Oulton Park Gold Cup, owner preference.

Spectators, its always nice to put on a good show. However, our priority is in enjoying our own motor sport participation, for which we pay.

Meanwhile, we work hard at increasing our membership and grid numbers.

Roger Wills
Invitation Class: Is there not some irony asking for invitations to "proper" sports racing cars when most of this grid consists of replicas / continuations / whatever you call them....?

No irony here Roger.

The Crossle Challenge is open to all Crossle sports racing cars of any type or year. This includes, 5S, 7S, 9S and the S2000 cars 37S, 42S & 47S. There are very few of the early cars left in the British Isles, we have seen a couple out this year and hopefully more in 2012.

The 9S, in production since 1966 in various configurations, will always form the great part of our grids, with 15 cars in UK, 5 in Ireland and 13 in Switzerland.

Early this year I was invited by John and Claire Smith of 360 MC to put up some of our cars for their sprint meeting at the 360 Snetterton 6hr race. We were very pleased to support this worthy venture, sending 3 cars along. It also afforded me, as Class co ordinator, the opportunity to meet up with Grant & Terri, TT Controllers and event sponsors over from Ireland, a large number of TT contributors, John Turner and John Ruston with whom I had a lengthy chat about our activities and plans. Two of our top guns enjoyed super racing against an Elva and Chevron B6, cars we seldom encounter. Chatting afterwards with their drivers re tyres, suspension, relative handling merits of the different marques etc., led us to exploring the prospect of an invitation class or match.

With this only in mind, I have floated off the idea in my above post. We would relish the prospect of occasional visitors in suitable cars for a run with us. There will always by occasions when business and family commitments may prevent owners from participating in their favoured series. There may be times when drivers do not wish to join the reserve list and might like to look elsewhere. Additionally, there are cars about which by virtue of pedigree or history may not qualify to race in the 'higher echelon.' We can offer an opportunity to race with us and compare the relative merits or otherwise of different marque and types on the track, locked in combat. We have some twincam engined cars in the stable which, but in truth, I would like to see some B8s run head to head against our Zetec engined cars. Looking at comparative lap times is one thing, competing against each other is another game entirely. Perhaps that might be the way - a challenge match.

We are not looking to set up in opposition to anyone or poach cars/drivers from other series, just looking to secure the occasional few interesting visitors and have good motorsport. Roger, you will be welcome.

Continuation V Original

Roger & John Ruston

We do not differentiate in the Crossle Challenge and frankly, I believe the debate has been done to death everywhere, not least on TT where it seems to filter into too many threads. Its a drumbeat that bores me to death and frankly the debate - if it can be called that - is totally irrelevant to the subject matter of the Crossle Challenge thread.

In closing, may I thank you for your comments and say that we must be doing something right - We took 15 cars to Spa in June, from UK, Ireland and Switzerland, taking 5 of the top 6 places in The Ardenne Challenge.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by eamonn ledwidge

Tim Falce

As Tim has stated, we were part of another series in which our cars did rather well. There was perhaps some latent resentment to the success in certain quarters, but it was not material to us. The series was struggling to maintain numbers and was increasing being merged with kit cars, we did not like that. Tim's own Jaguar based group had already largely decamped, for their own good reasons. The Crossle owners felt that it was time to look elsewhere and seek a better setup which offered longer races and doubleheader meetings. We believed we had a deal with another series which was withdrawn at short notice in February of this year.

I didn't only mean dominating in speed but also in numbers and I'd be the first to admit that the Crossle contingent helped keep the series afloat for a number of years. I wasn't aware the kits had been introduced while the Crossles were still racing with us and I make no secret that one of the reasons I went elsewhere was because of driving standards of the Ginettas and although my car may be pretend, the money it costs to repair is very real. Also I enjoy the racing far more where I am now.

Originally Posted by eamonn ledwidge

Roger & John Ruston

We do not differentiate in the Crossle Challenge and frankly, I believe the debate has been done to death everywhere, not least on TT where it seems to filter into too many threads. Its a drumbeat that bores me to death and frankly the debate - if it can be called that - is totally irrelevant to the subject matter of the Crossle Challenge thread.

In closing, may I thank you for your comments and say that we must be doing something right - We took 15 cars to Spa in June, from UK, Ireland and Switzerland, taking 5 of the top 6 places in The Ardenne Challenge.

I totally agree with you Eamonn but sadly there are snobs in all walks of life but what makes me chuckle is that there are probably more fake original historic cars than genuine ones. There's at least one more original D-type than was produced in Brown's lane and countless more lightweight and low drag E-types than there ever were. I'd also be interested to know how many of the rarer cars in the Masters series are actually using the original bodies.

[john ruston]

For the last time.

In my opinion you should not mix new cars with those with continuous history or the whole thing gets muddled in Historic series races.

It screws history.

Continuation cars,replicas whatever have a place in racing but separate from the others.

I am equally against the pretend E Types and Cortinas that race now that have nothing to do with cars as they raced in period.

The 360 race at Snetterton was effectively a libre race where everything went and was totally transparent.

Don't know about the snob bit,must go to elocution classes.

Everyone has a different opinion but its toys racing and nothing more.


It's not important unless someone is making a living from it and in the case of the Crossle's it seems to me that this thread is a bit of advertising to give them mileage.

Don't expect everyone to agree with all views when the forum is used to do this as worthwhile cause as people think it is.

[simon drabble]

I think the point is that kit car race series (and 360) should really be in National and Club part of Ten Tenths rather than in historic racing as they are not historic!
I too agree it seems at odds that advertising is not allowed yet you can shameless plug a race series which as I have already said is probably not historic in the first place.
I would rather read about S2000 as they are underpublicised in my opinion.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I think the point is that kit car race series (and 360) should really be in National and Club part of Ten Tenths rather than in historic racing as they are not historic!
I too agree it seems at odds that advertising is not allowed yet you can shameless plug a race series which as I have already said is probably not historic in the first place.
I would rather read about S2000 as they are underpublicised in my opinion.

I am more of a guest mod here and I used my judgement when JT was otherwise pre occupied and if he feels fit I'm sure he could move any thread he wants.
Historics seem to be subjective, some people think anything from the last century is historic so that would include 1990s BMWs etc which I personally don't agree with but that's just my opinion.

As for S2000, what S2000s are you on about because the S2000s I looked at earlier this year were very modern indeed.

[simon drabble]

I was referring to the historic class - under publicised and potentially a great series but in a catch 22 as it doesn't get enough to have a stand alone series and many (in all honesty probably inc me) are waiting to see if it gains enough cars to get a series. I always think it should have been allowed to run as a class with the Martini

[Tim Falce]

So a similar situation to the Crossle Challenge and other such series then.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

So a similar situation to the Crossle Challenge and other such series then.

no - they are under publicised and are genuinely historic!

[Tim Falce]

There's nothing to stop anyone starting a thread about them.

[simon drabble]

Tim that is the strange thing - people have and it has very little traction. This in itself sends out an alarm yet everyone I know who raced them in period (early 80's) has great memories of them and their evolution into thundersports. I cant help feeling we are all missing something.... in europe they have several long distance races so another box ticked - but not enough interest domestically to have a stand alone race - odd.

[911thillclimber]

Saw my first Crossles race today at Olton Park.
Great little cars and very smooth to race by the looks of them, very tidy, right up there with the busy pack.

Had a good stare at one in the paddock, and the driver told my wife to buy me one!
Made me smile, he also told me where I could order it today...

Very nice car design, far nicer than the 23B's and the Merlins imho.

[andy97]

I agree that the Historic Sports 2000s are under publicised & are great cars but remember, they started of as a facimile series of the Group 6 2 litre cars with the Pinto engine. Not much different to the Crossles in this incarnation & philosophy really. Great cars, more power to Eamon & the rest.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I think the point is that kit car race series (and 360) should really be in National and Club part of Ten Tenths rather than in historic racing as they are not historic!

The fact is that Eamonn sought refuge here and I am happy to accommodate that. Besides there are 2 or 3 of the 'historic' original Crossles in these races and the existence of the continuation examples is really no different to the others we have discussed, and which we see raced in some of our historic races. Whilst I agree with JR that in the normal course of events, they should be kept separate, in the case of the Crossles, the members have happily come together to race their cars against each other whether original or continuation. That's their choice. Unfortunately for them, they do not have sufficient numbers on their own to provide adequate grids, hence their efforts to seek a solution.

As for the 360, it now has a subforum of its own for its members within this forum. I'm sure, Simon, that we have had this discussion before but the 360 was born out of the Historic Racing Today forum partly for cars that, whilst old, did not have a series of their own and to address a desire to provide a race for those who wanted a proper endurance event in the UK. What constitutes 'historic' is, as Tim says, very subjective. Some feel that racing stopped in 1939, others at 1965, or 1970 or whatever. The fact is that yesterday's Belgian GP is now history. I'm told that in academic terms 'history' is regarded as any event that took place over 10 years ago. The 360MRC regs allow cars in that are 20 years or more old; I'm happy that that constitutes a race for historic cars.

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I too agree it seems at odds that advertising is not allowed yet you can shameless plug a race series which as I have already said is probably not historic in the first place.

Two separate points here but I think that I have addressed the 'historic' bit. In case, you haven't noticed, a lot of series get 'plugged' here. Whilst we do have a bit of a problem if a promoter comes on here and blatantly pushes his series without contributing much else, I have absolutely no hesitation in saying that I'm happy if Chris, for example draws attention to an HSCC meeting, or that someone pushes CSCC or that Al Weymann promotes the CTCRC or that I, or Mark will now start to plug FiSCaR. I've always taken the view that historic racing is different to modern contemporary series. Whilst some have a commercial aspect, many are run by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. This is what this forum is all about, and I have no desire to stifle those putting the effort in to provide historic racing because they wish to talk about the series in which they have personally contributed to developing. I have not once, had the owners/administrators come to me and say that I'm being too tolerant on that score.

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I would rather read about S2000 as they are underpublicised in my opinion.

Someone needs to start a discussion about it, then. No-one is forced to read this thread. If it is not of interest, just ignore it. There are plenty more to choose from and we have no limit on the number of threads that we can have here.

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

I am more of a guest mod here and I used my judgement when JT was otherwise pre occupied and if he feels fit I'm sure he could move any thread he wants.

I'll take that opportunity to thank Tim for helping out when personal issues imposed on my ability to mod properly. I can, and do, move threads between the various forums for which I mod. I haven't chosen to do that with this one.

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I was referring to the historic (S2000) class -under publicised and potentially a great series but in a catch 22 as it doesn't get enough to have a stand alone series and many (in all honesty probably inc me) are waiting to see if it gains enough cars to get a series. I always think it should have been allowed to run as a class with the Martini

Originally Posted by andy97

I agree that the Historic Sports 2000s are under publicised & are great cars but remember, they started of as a facimile series of the Group 6 2 litre cars with the Pinto engine. Not much different to the Crossles in this incarnation & philosophy really. Great cars, more power to Eamon & the rest.

I too agree that it is underpublicised but that is surely for those involved in racing them to address.

As for including them in the Martini series, I don't think I'm giving anything away when I say that there would certainly have been discussion about their inclusion but that the overwhelmimg view was that they were not the right 'fit' if you were trying to provide a typical 1970's Gp6 race, and for the reasons Andy has provided. I would share that view; whilst visually they may appear similar; different animals really. If, for any reason the Martini grids cannot be grown over the next season or two, then I think the first place to look to enhance them, rather than S2000 cars, would be from the Gp5 ranks, such as the Chevron B16.

I think that it is entirely right that the members of this forum feel able to express freely their opinions, provided it shows due respect to those they oppose and within the rules of the site. However, and you would not expect me to say otherwise, I do hope that we can all recognise that everyone who posts on here are enthusiasts and welcome for that. Above all, I trust that we would personally like this forum to reflect the spirit and atmosphere which appears to mostly predominate at our historic race meetings, and I apologise to Simon Drabble, who I regard as a friend, if he feels that I have picked on him.

Now, I think that we should return to the purpose of this thread. Whilst, I can understand the Crossle boys desire to increase grid sizes, I think that trying to have an invitation class invoking the 'Spirit of the 60's' is probably ill-advised. I think, in fact, in having this discussion, we may have stumbled on a possible solution. I wonder if an approach to the historic S2000 boys might be fruitful. If you had a grid made up of say 8 Crossle 9S, of which 2 or 3 were original cars, and 15 historic S2000s you would have a grid that maybe caters for the needs of both groups and is predominantly historic in nature. It does, of course, cut across the ideal of not mixing original with continuation, but in this case we already have a group of Crossle racers, who themselves are happy to race together.

[simon drabble]

JT you are the Kissinger of the racing world! I think the second part of the problem is getting a suitable home for series. S2000 races are often at meeting historic guys woudl not naturally feel at home.
Given HSCC is full to the brim with its own series maybe a link would work with CSCC?

[John Turner]

I agree HSCC would not necessarily be the natural home for this; interesting point re CSCC.

We know that there are too many racing series really including in Historics (and I bet we can still point to gaps in certain eras covered) and putting two together can address several issues:-

1) Reduces the number of series running individually
2) Gives those with small or declining grids an opportunity to reverse that situation and a better chance of break even or profit on grid costs
3) Bigger numbers per grid gives the individual a greater opportunity to find one or several racers competing at his/her performance level rather than circulating in splendid isolation.

[gt917]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I think the point is that kit car race series (and 360) should really be in National and Club part of Ten Tenths rather than in historic racing as they are not historic!
I too agree it seems at odds that advertising is not allowed yet you can shameless plug a race series which as I have already said is probably not historic in the first place.
I would rather read about S2000 as they are underpublicised in my opinion.

Mr Drabble,

MOST of the racing replicas, re-creations, call them what you will, were never "kit cars" and many of them are very historic and have longer lives than many "genuine" so called historic cars.
My own replica GT40 originally started and was registered in 1972 and has a hundred races to its credit as do dozens of diverse replicas that i,ve seen over several decades, all one offs.

Perhaps you can tell me when the official cut off point for HISTORIC racing ends because i,m pretty sure it would cut out a lot of historic racing !!!!!!!!!

And finally ....... most of the owners of these cars, me included, do not "pretend" to have originals.

[The SpeCTator]

Saw them at Brands this weekend for the first time, lovely cars but 2 races of 40 minutes for 8 cars is a joke.

I would rather have watched a track day than have to endure this.

Let them amalgamate with other series of replicas ( I thought the Chevrons were meant to link up) but for the sanity of spectators and marshals alike please let these lovely cars race with something else!

[911thillclimber]

This thread is to 'open' Crossles to those who fancy the sports racer with period design.
This thead has done that really well and even wobbled me, a hardened hillclimber of 20 years to think hard.
They are a classic design faithful to the original except the engine. We all know that is understandable.

As to where they fit in any series?

Olton to me was a comfortable fit. They diced with the field, where right in there scrapping cleany and added to the great grid.

As a spectator, it all worked.
If they are continuation so what? Still good racers and look/behave right.

As a competitor who fancies historics then what a great car to buy.

I would like to see this thread return to promoting the marque both on track and (please) more techie stuff on them.

It is good that 10/10ths allows a good discussion mid'thread but time to get back to center?

[eamonn ledwidge]

We had a good weekend, but we were disappointed with our own low numbers for reasons set out earlier.

Sadly, the Chrevron GR8 group, with whom we have shared races this season, did not turn up. That is now a matter between themselves and BARC, I guess.

Originally Posted by The SpeCTator

Saw them at Brands this weekend for the first time, lovely cars but 2 races of 40 minutes for 8 cars is a joke.

I would rather have watched a track day than have to endure this.

Let them amalgamate with other series of replicas ( I thought the Chevrons were meant to link up) but for the sanity of spectators and marshals alike please let these lovely cars race with something else!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by John Turner

I wonder if an approach to the historic S2000 boys might be fruitful. If you had a grid made up of say 8 Crossle 9S, of which 2 or 3 were original cars, and 15 historic S2000s you would have a grid that maybe caters for the needs of both groups and is predominantly historic in nature. It does, of course, cut across the ideal of not mixing original with continuation, but in this case we already have a group of Crossle racers, who themselves are happy to race together.

Originally Posted by simon drabble

JT you are the Kissinger of the racing world! I think the second part of the problem is getting a suitable home for series. S2000 races are often at meeting historic guys woudl not naturally feel at home.
Given HSCC is full to the brim with its own series maybe a link would work with CSCC?

It is interesting to try to engineer our own grid compilations but we are ignoring the point that the Crossle Owners Group have a relationship with Chevron & the BARC, whilst the Historic Sports 2000 guys have a relationship with the BRSCC (& most importantly race within the existing Pinto S2000 championship with the option of racing in extra S2000 races on the same w/e if they wish). Its very unlikely that they will join together, i'd suggest. Although if they did, I'm sure that the CSCC would be happy to talk to them!

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by gt917

Mr Drabble,

MOST of the racing replicas, re-creations, call them what you will, were never "kit cars" and many of them are very historic and have longer lives than many "genuine" so called historic cars.
My own replica GT40 originally started and was registered in 1972 and has a hundred races to its credit as do dozens of diverse replicas that i,ve seen over several decades, all one offs.

Perhaps you can tell me when the official cut off point for HISTORIC racing ends because i,m pretty sure it would cut out a lot of historic racing !!!!!!!!!

And finally ....... most of the owners of these cars, me included, do not "pretend" to have originals.

Correct me if I am wrong but a car originally sold in parts rather than complete is a kit car and to describe a replica as a one off is surely an oxymoron........