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7 Dec 2011, 05:07 (Ref:2996273) | #101 | |
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http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...-homologation/
I already posted this on some other ALMS threads, but here's Audi's audi R8 LMS GTE announcement. The car can ONLY race in the ALMS, because of a special rule-exception granted to the IMSA. the car is basically the Grand-Am version with a slightly different restrictor. Now I'm very curious as to how this thing will perform compared to the existing GTEs. Maybe we should take a look at the Grand-Am test sessions for clues? |
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7 Dec 2011, 08:03 (Ref:2996310) | #102 | |||
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The fact is this; Not many cars would survive a single race without modifications, especially in the engine area. A FI car would deffo need to get a stronger FI system, it´s road variant would melt from the strain of racing. So either way, you´d need so set up rules to make the constructors not go haywire in the engines. And so you have BoP anyway. |
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7 Dec 2011, 08:28 (Ref:2996316) | #103 | |||
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7 Dec 2011, 08:34 (Ref:2996318) | #104 | |||
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As for European GTE-Pro, it's almost hard to say how good the racing was because the class hardly got any coverage. There were a couple of good battles between AF Corse and JMW, but guess what, they have the same car. I'm not sure how BoP helped that any. Perhaps the most thrilling moments in GT/GTE last year was watching Wolf Henzler drive the Falken car, but that has nothing to do with BoP. Good driving is good driving regardless. Quote:
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7 Dec 2011, 10:26 (Ref:2996355) | #105 | |||
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There are many forms of BoP, and hands down, the one used in GT3 Europe is probably the worst. The BoP in GTE is possibly a much better way forward. I´d like them to BoP the cars once before the season, and then let them be. They should have a huge amont of data from telemetries, so a BoP shouldn´t be that hard to calculate and test. |
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7 Dec 2011, 10:30 (Ref:2996356) | #106 | |
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This topic is quite depressing to go through, actually. Shows how much is wrong in modern-day motor racing, and most of the people have no idea what happens behind the curtains
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7 Dec 2011, 11:05 (Ref:2996365) | #107 | ||||
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Regardless of how BoP and waivers are applied, it is artificial racing. Laboratory made racing where politics influence the ingredients. It's not the way to go. At least some series make it abundantly clear that their series is BoP'ed and nothing but a circus freak show, but the ones that don't do it are nothing but a bait and switch scam in addition to being a circus freak show. When a car company releases an uninspired range of automobiles, it is said that the sad state of affairs are the product of a company being led by bean counters and not engineers. I don't know how much truth there is to that statement, but if it is accurate, maybe that principle should be applied to racing series because uninspired pretty much describes the entire world of professional auto racing leadership right now. |
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7 Dec 2011, 11:07 (Ref:2996367) | #108 | ||
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One reason FOR BoP, is that given the 'unchained freedom' demanded by several here, just how fast COULD a GT-E car lap, compared with a Proto?
And just how expensive would it be? So who could afford to run it? And after the LMP runners have had it banned, WHERE do you run it? GT1 was the Big Banger class, and that has pretty much evaporated, due to it's cost. And there were only ever really two manufacturers in it for most of it's LM life! Once you allow unrestricted developement, costs spiral out of control. It's what happens every time. Unless you Cost Cap things, which is a crude financial BoP. |
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Tim Yorath Ecurie Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch Fan of "the sacred monster Christophe Bouchut"... |
7 Dec 2011, 11:23 (Ref:2996376) | #109 | |
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I'm not suggesting unchained freedom. Not in a GT class. That's what prototypes are for. So you take a base GT car and figure out what needs to be modified for racing purposes and allow that across the board. Safety, tires, suspension, aero, engine management, weight reduction, so forth. The scope of the allowable modifications are defined as clearly as possible and you leave it at that. With that, costs and speed are somewhat controlled. If you want looser control of those, allow for more modifications. May the best man win, not may all men win. The key is one rulebook for all, but one rulebook for each car or each individual team. That's where the problem exists.
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7 Dec 2011, 11:27 (Ref:2996380) | #110 | ||
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I lose track. Are you a BMW fan, or not???
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Tim Yorath Ecurie Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch Fan of "the sacred monster Christophe Bouchut"... |
7 Dec 2011, 11:30 (Ref:2996381) | #111 | |
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7 Dec 2011, 11:31 (Ref:2996382) | #112 | ||
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Ah, OK.
So Waivers to allow folks to compete with a runaway winner, are to your liking then??? |
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Tim Yorath Ecurie Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch Fan of "the sacred monster Christophe Bouchut"... |
7 Dec 2011, 11:33 (Ref:2996383) | #113 | |||
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Hmmm, remember the Ferrari 360 that raced in N-GT, in the early 00´s? When it first appeared, very little was done to it. Basically a stock car. Slow as heck compared to the Porsches in the class. Is that what we are looking for? A small comparison; A STCC BMW is faster around Ring Knutstorp than a stock Lamborghini Gallardo. And the Dev on STCC cars aren´t really that much. |
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7 Dec 2011, 12:10 (Ref:2996400) | #114 | |||
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7 Dec 2011, 12:18 (Ref:2996409) | #115 | |
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I think running the cars as close to stock as possible would not only be dull, but would lead to one type of car dominating, this would probably kill the diversity, with manufacturers trying to build something similar to the dominating car, or worse, deciding it's not worth the headache and pull out of the class entirely.
One of the reasons I find GTE a bit underwhelming (despite the great racing the class has provided) is precisely because I think they don't look that far from stock, I like my GTs with crazy aero and bodywork, it also doesn't help that in the case of some cars like the Corvette, the road car actually has a lot more power than the race car. |
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7 Dec 2011, 12:21 (Ref:2996413) | #116 | ||
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I'm Confused. You say you want Good Racing, then advocate something that COULD allow a team, or a car, to run away and hide? That ain't racing, and soon, it's a spec series as other kids take their toys home...
Then say you want a 'spec wing'? Why can't I spend thousands in a wind tunnel? It's been done with E-types, FFS! I give up... |
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Tim Yorath Ecurie Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch Fan of "the sacred monster Christophe Bouchut"... |
7 Dec 2011, 12:44 (Ref:2996432) | #117 | ||
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As for good racing, good racing does not mean close racing. It can include close racing, but it is so much more than that. A good race is one where the participants and their partners have done years of research and executed it by putting out good products on the track without the aid of politics and artificial boosts/reductions. When that happens, a blow out may occur. In a case like that, you applaud the champion and hope the competition can and will put in the work to get to the top in the future like the champion did. Blow outs aren't a given though. I don't think there is any BoP (that I know of) between the Audi and Peugeot LMP1s and we saw a pretty damn good race at Le Mans between those two cars, don't you think? Besides, blowouts occur in BoP/spec racing too. Look at Ganassi's domination in Indycar and Grand-Am. Sometimes that occurs because of sandbagging or just because some teams just have the ability to find a little extra when the situation calls for it. BoP taken to the extreme could eliminate that even, but that just makes for a bigger clown show. |
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7 Dec 2011, 13:32 (Ref:2996457) | #118 | ||
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Personally, I prefer a clown show over a rabbit followed by a train. At least a clown show is fun to watch, artificial as it may be.
A rabbit/train scenario end after it´s first season. Season two, everybody have rabbits, or they´ve all quit. |
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7 Dec 2011, 13:42 (Ref:2996461) | #119 | ||
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If a car can’t survive a one hour sprint race then it doesn’t deserve to race, and it could be motivation to improve the street model to be more durable; again real track to street tech transfer, not some marketing bovine excretion. I think there would be incredible interest in a series that has real racing of the actual cars that are being sold to customers. The only people that would be against this are the weaklings that would rather hide behind rule adjustments in their favor, and organizers and sanctioning bodies that get their palms greased for the accommodation. |
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7 Dec 2011, 13:58 (Ref:2996468) | #120 | |
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Until the dominating car starts running ads, so much for the “ultimate driving machine”, or “there is no substitute”. I suspect if the GT-R or Corvette stopped racing because they were getting their arse handed to them there would be a backlash and the only option would be to improve the breed or curl up in a corner and hope someone still buys their product. BoP is that dirty little secret that everyone believes makes their marque suffer and gives an advantage to the other guy’s marque. I say let’s find out, get rid of it, it shouldn’t be up to a sanctioning body to determine the displacement of the next Corvette, or any other car for that matter. Let’s have “real” racing.
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7 Dec 2011, 15:42 (Ref:2996529) | #121 | ||
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And so we sound the death knell of the series that does this...
Remember IMSA? Yes, competition improves the breed. COMPETITION. Whitewash is poisonous... If you offer a chance of winning, teams will come. If you offer them no hope at all, they won't. |
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Tim Yorath Ecurie Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch Fan of "the sacred monster Christophe Bouchut"... |
7 Dec 2011, 16:08 (Ref:2996543) | #122 | |
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Do you understand the meaning of competition? You see in my scenario it’s up to the manufacturers to control their own destiny; not some sanctioning body/organizer telling them how to design their car. The cars exist already, job done, your implying before a race is run in my imaginary series that some cars wouldn’t stack up…who, what manufacturer do you think would suffer under my scenario? Who wouldn’t have a chance? Whitewash is exactly what BoP is, making pretenders contenders.
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7 Dec 2011, 16:18 (Ref:2996549) | #123 | |||
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Which in turn means, that open competition would also be insanely expensive - and let's face it, what you propose is open competition, only through the detour of producing matching roadcars, which would make things even more expensive. Add to this the increasingly green mindset of the mainstream and a general apathy (even of car-enthusiasts) towards motorsports and their is no way how a manufacturer could justify a racing program in a series like the one you propose. The expenses would far outweigh the gains, and good look trying to sell that to the shareholders. |
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7 Dec 2011, 16:42 (Ref:2996557) | #124 | ||
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Really, the green issue? The only way to go totally green is to stop racing altogether. I have always found this new political correctness in racing more than a little dubious. The truth is only a weakling would want to protect the status quo and hide behind rules that favor them. Pretenders want to be contenders, its good marketing strategy because your product you actually sell to customers doesn’t have to perform; you can live off the myth perpetuated by BoP. In the simplest way I can explain, No BoP everyone has a chance, With BoP somebody is going to get screwed and usually does. |
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7 Dec 2011, 17:38 (Ref:2996584) | #125 | |||||
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Therefore, if a company wants to have a successfull racecar, they need to design a car AS A RACE CAR. If you stipulate that only road cars can be raced in your series that only means, that they have to built a race car for the road, sell the necessary number for homologation for it, and then race it. That does not only add one more 'fictious racing version', but also one more road version, that still has to satisfy the demands of the customers in all non track related categories. Quote:
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The only reason we have some manufacturer involvement in GT-racing right now is because they can do it on the cheap and the ROI is somewhat on par with the expenses, or the expenses can be recouped by selling race cars to customers. |
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