[Official] Spanish Grand Prix 2016: Grand Prix Weekend Thread

[old man]

I tend to think many posts on here are applying more deviousness and / or malevolousness than actually applied. I go with the stewards, racing incident, and think both drivers simply made mistakes, Lewis picked the wrong side and Nico was distracted and wandering off line

With them out we had a great race that would otherwise have been for 3rd podium spot

I thought the post race interviews were interesting, Lewis admitting a mistake, Nico simply regretting the incident

[bobec]

Originally Posted by Casper

News Flash.....that is how the best and most competitive drivers think, they don't ask questions and just do what it takes to gain a place or prevent a rival winning. Schumacher & Senna were the two shining examples of this in F1 in recent memory. They think second place is the first of the losers and being second is not where they want to be. I have been involved with two drivers who thought the same way and it is truly eye opening to see what they will do to win and both thought the sun shone out of Senna's bum. Us mere mortals cannot fathom that kind of thinking and the risk involved but they can't fathom why anyone would want to be second. Hamilton knew that it was either first place at the exit of the first corner or lose once again and to prevent being second he was prepared to go the whole way. Senna & Prost all those years ago was a good example of that thinking where Senna was prepared to prevent at any cost Prost winning the race and he did.

Wasn't Prost also prepared to prevent Senna from winning at any cost as well? Senna went for a small gap and forgot about the brakes at Suzuka 1990, but there is some history behind this, starting with Suzuka 1989. I'm pretty sure Senna wasn't happy with what he had to do in 1990, but at leash he had clearly announced what he's going to do before the race, given the circumstances. I don't remember him doing any other such moves.

Lewis had no reason to feel he had been done wrong by Rosberg and that he had to get even in order to take out his teammate. But I don't think that's what happened. Just an opportunistic attempt to pass gone wrong.

[Kempi]

Senna did not forget the brakes. Suzuka 90 was an intentional crash with advance notice.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by Kempi

Senna did not forget the brakes. Suzuka 90 was an intentional crash with advance notice.

The notice was that he won't brake at the first corner for anyone. He wasn't insisting on crashing.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by dsg

Prost - 4 championships
Senna - 3 championships

That's a bit meaningless in F1. Both were great drivers, but this isn't the 200m sprint at the olympics, where the best one always wins.

Originally Posted by Purist

There are those with that mindset, but that attitude, especially when the driver doesn't appear to mature, won't earn my respect or overall admiration.

That would be pretty unfair if directed towards Senna. Watch the 1991 championship, and also the 1993 championship was very good for him, despite all odds. Can you imagine what would have happened with Senna in the FW-15? Anyway, Prost spent a lot more seasons with a strong car. When his car was no good, as in 1991, he also acted in an "immature" way. Also, Senna tried to stay loyal to McLaren until the very end.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

I would say that Rosberg really had track position and Hamilton thought he was at the FFord festival....

Having had the opportunity to watch a couple of replays again, and on mature consideration (don't ) I have come to the conclusion that the 'fault' lies entirely with Hamilton. Firstly as soon as Nico found himself in the lead, but losing power, as he came off the preceding corner he instantly cut right to defend the inside for the next right hander. Meanwhile Lewis also went right to pass the slowing Rosberg, but into a closing gap. Running out of room he got two wheels on the grass, and lost control. Now IF Rosberg had deliberately switched him off the road, he would have moved left to take the best line for the next corner. It seems to me that he was almost certainly unaware of his team mate's problem, as he stayed directly in the firing line of the errant Merc. As it was he failed to make any attempt to avoid a collision by dodging left or slowing down. I do not believe that if he had known about Lewis' problem he would have stuck to the inside line.

It was a 'racing accident' caused by poor judgement on the part of Lewis who did have choices, but chose unwisely.

It may have looked like Nico was blocking Lewis, but I think he was simply covering the line, and Lewis was too rash.

Feel free to disagree, but reasoned arguments only please.


Caveat; I have made no secret of my dislike of Hamilton, but have tried to avoid any bias, and used only observation of replays to form an opinion.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bauble

...Meanwhile Lewis also went right to pass the slowing Rosberg, but into a closing gap. Running out of room he got two wheels on the grass, and lost control...

while i am also content to call it a racing incident thats it for me as well.

LH doubled down by staying right. if he had moved left in the direction opposite to NR's defensive block/covering the line maneuver, LH's speed could have carried him around NR through turn 3.

that said, i loved that it happened as it open up the race tremendously.

imo, yours is really a fair an unbiased assessment of the situation bauble.

[Greem]

Having missed all the fun by virtue of being in the safety car at Rockingham (for US readers, the *other* Rockingham) all weekend I watched the race fairly late last night.

I'd say that the stewards got the decision right. Yes, the gap closed more quickly than Lewis expected, yes, Nico was going a lot slower than Lewis at the time and yes, Lewis ended up on the grass. From the look of things, if Lewis had jammed the brakes on hard in order to drop out backwards I think we could safely assume that he'd have locked up, causing the incident to happen 200m and a half second earlier.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Right decision.

That put aside - Verstappen *really* impressed me. That was drive of someone right on top of his game.

In other news, I visited the Mercedes F1 factory on Friday and got a behind-the-scenes tour. Some of the bits Lewis broke on Sunday were being built in front of us on Friday!

[chunterer]

Max is one cool customer no doubt about that. Such a complete driver isn't he? I bet a Kimi from 10 years ago would have a much harder go for the win though...

Kyvat must be gutted and we do have to ask how close would he have been to the ultimate pace at the weekend if he had kept his seat.... So far this year he has matched Ricciardo on average as he did last year.

Sainz did a super job as well. It maybe the STR are already starting to fall backwards in the pecking order but he seems to have an assuredness about him just as much as Max does.

Bottas probably drove one of his best races for scant reward? Massa did a good job too chasing people down all afternoon.

Magnussen is also reminding people of his talent in that recalcitrant Renault.

Force India still average this year, it's like they'#ve gone backwards 3-4 years when they struggled to get into the top 10 let alone threaten the top 6.

However Max's performance is going to make a lot of team owners look at their driving line ups and I wouldn't be surprise to see a number of 'stars' contracts being revised and people going onto year-by-year deals or something!!

[Neppatsrev Xam]

LOL

[John Turner]

Yep, let's hope that Max becomes as class an act and as great an ambassador for FI as JB is.

[bella]

ok.

so the rosberg/hamilton thing. finally saw the highlights last night, and had a proper look at the incident (rather than a grainy facebook video on someone's phone).

the definition of "racing incident" to me is when you can say "x shouldn't really have been there but y shouldn't have done that either". none of this percentages nonsense. if it's a racing incident, the role of the stewards then is to say "you both need to think about your role and what you did wrong there". or penalise the pair of them for being idiots.

nobody did anything downright stupid in racing etiquette terms really. if there's a criticism it's that rosberg defended too hard and hamilton attacked too much, they were too busy squabbling to notice how silly their actions were in a racing context rather than a lewis and nico, mercedes teammates context. they were both too focussed on defending *that* corner and going for *that* gap. silly f4 stuff from the pair of them.

tl;dr - racing incident. neither of them were blameless, neither were completely responsible, and they both look like muppets.

nothing but praise for verstappen though. that's how you win a race, boys. you take everything with both hands and do exactly what you need to.

[RWill2073]

Just watched the race. Don't usually post in f1 threads, but this race was incredible. I feel like we witnessed an historical race that we'll be recalling for decades.

Max verstappen must be the once in a lifetime driver that he's been described as. There are just no words left to describe how awesome he is. He looks like he's going to be written about 50 years from now as one of the all time greats.

As for rosberg and hamilton, I could see either being at fault for the accident, but I think it was a great thing for rosber really. Last year there were numerous occasions where Hamilton forced rosberg off or to back off to avoid an accident, and it gave the feel of Hamilton exerting his dominance on the team and relegating rosberg to a #2 driver. I always discounted rosbergs 3 wins to end last year because the championship was already wrapped up. Some bad luck for Hamilton aided rosbergs great start this year. If rosberg had gone right back to being the sensible one by backing off or not forcing things and thereby letting Hamilton by, it would have again had the feel of Hamilton re-announcing himself as the clear #1 driver. Rosberg needed to do this to send a message that he will not be pushed around and that he is a #1 as well.

Had Hamilton got by and won the race, he very easily could have reeled off 4 straight wins himself and been right back in the title fight. At that point, we'd be pointing to that pass as another example of Hamilton imposing his will on rosberg and showing why he's won the last two championships. This was a big moment for Rosenberg I think. Now Hamilton will have to think twice before pushing the issue with rosber and rosberg is playing the role of his equal now instead of his #2 driver. Well done rosberg, even if it cause a wreck.

[Mike Harte]

As regards the Hamilton/Rosberg incident, I agree totally with both Lauda and Jackie Stewart; the blame lies entirely with Hamilton; maybe it has something to do with how we view racing etiquette. It doesn't matter what the driver in front is doing providing that he is following the rules - and there is no suggestion anywhere from anyone that Rosberg was contravening any of the sporting rules - it is always the responsibility of the following driver to avoid a clash, the same as it is on the roads of pretty well every country in the world.

As it seems that Rosberg had slowed more than expected at the point that Hamilton was attempting his pass, then it would have been prudent for Hamilton to have pulled out towards the left where there was plenty of room, and from where he would have gained extra traction coming out of the looming turn, probably allowing him to pass Rosberg easily after they came out of the corner.

Hamilton seems to have left his thinking head in the pit's garage.

[S griffin]

I kinda agree with those that said part of the problem is blocking can be dangerous, but I can't see it being banned, even though it's a problem with closing speeds. This is not an ideal world unfortunately. And to be fair to Rosberg, he did make his intention to go to the inside, it wasn't like Schumi in Hungary, where he moved to the middle, then to the inside when Rubens was alongside him

[chris bailey]

As for rosberg and hamilton, I could see either being at fault for the accident, but I think it was a great thing for rosber really. Last year there were numerous occasions where Hamilton forced rosberg off or to back off to avoid an accident, and it gave the feel of Hamilton exerting his dominance on the team and relegating rosberg to a #2 driver. I always discounted rosbergs 3 wins to end last year because the championship was already wrapped up. Some bad luck for Hamilton aided rosbergs great start this year. If rosberg had gone right back to being the sensible one by backing off or not forcing things and thereby letting Hamilton by, it would have again had the feel of Hamilton re-announcing himself as the clear #1 driver. Rosberg needed to do this to send a message that he will not be pushed around and that he is a #1 as well.

Had Hamilton got by and won the race, he very easily could have reeled off 4 straight wins himself and been right back in the title fight. At that point, we'd be pointing to that pass as another example of Hamilton imposing his will on rosberg and showing why he's won the last two championships. This was a big moment for Rosenberg I think. Now Hamilton will have to think twice before pushing the issue with rosber and rosberg is playing the role of his equal now instead of his #2 driver. Well done rosberg, even if it cause a wreck.[/QUOTE]

Sums it up perfectly. Maybe Lewis will reflect on Nico's new-found desire not to be forced off the circuit whenever Lewis is "coming through". In this, he is very similar to his hero Senna, who also took the view that nobody should stand in his way, ever. In F3 he did it to Martin Brundle. In FF1600 he did it to everyone. He simply continued the trend in F1.

Monaco will be interesting...........

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by chris bailey

Monaco will be interesting...........

.......to see who makes use of the escape roads.......

[Keycube]

Haven't been a follower of F1 in awhile, but after seeing clips of this race and the post-race interviews, I was curious to come in here and see what others thought of "the incident".

So...hmm. Watching the interviews, Rosberg sure gave the impression of a nervous, stumbling, defensive sort.

Looking at the incident, I honestly can't believe anyone is faulting Hamilton. He's catching Rosberg at an alarming rate, with seemingly well enough time/room to make the corner ahead of him even on the racing line (given that rate). I see word of Rosberg "defending/protecting", but these aren't even equally matched cars at this point. If you're going to blame Hamilton on the merit of "Too aggressive too early", then why at least wouldn't you say "It's early in the race and you clearly boned your setting (and you're leading the championship), so let him go and live to fight another day" (which probably occurs in a matter of seconds)?

Conversely, Hamilton doesn't even have a decision to make; faster than the guy ahead of me, huge hole to the right, room to make a pass, end of story.

Seems like if that were anyone else on the grid that had a car as slow as Rosberg was at that moment and who made a move right on top of Hamilton like that, this wouldn't even be a discussion; but there's some sort of artificial deference that people assume Hamilton should have been making, whether merely because of being teammates, Hamilton being a champion who should have "known better", or...something.

It just didn't seem like moving over like that on someone (particularly when so mismatched in the moment) was "okay" when I watched F1 in years past. One of those things where you're not sure if you've changed, or your environment has.

As always, IMHO.

[Mike Harte]

To drag this futile argument on further, Rosberg was not blocking Hamilton; in fact, Hamilton chose to follow in his wheel tracks when he had the rest of the track to go to, which would have given him a far better exit out of the coming corner.

A leading car is not obliged in any rule book that has been written for motor racing to make it easy for a following car to pass, and as long as Rosberg had not weaved in front of Hamilton (or changed his line more than once as per the sporting regulations), then the track is Rosberg's to decide what line he wants to take. It is then incumbent on those following to take whatever action is required to avoid running into the leading car.

It's what is known as defensive driving; the ability to anticipate what the cars around you are likely to do, and what other actions that others may take. It was not put into practice on Sunday by Hamilton.

Hamilton made a mistake, that's all. It wasn't intentional, and it's not the end of the world. But maybe next time he won't try to pass where the door is already closing, which it clearly was at the point that he darted out from under Rosberg's rear wing.

[djinvicta]

Perhaps Hamilton had an early plane ticket to LA..
I loved the race..great stuff. Actually....as Toto said "it was bound to happen". It gave us a good scrap afterwards.
Onwards Monaco. As I predicted MV to win in Spain, I think the downforce of the Red Bulls will be the thing to watch..
At least both Merc drivers can walk home from there..

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Hamilton made a mistake, that's all. It wasn't intentional, and it's not the end of the world. But maybe next time he won't try to pass where the door is already closing, which it clearly was at the point that he darted out from under Rosberg's rear wing.

I agree it's futile, but from the Hamilton onboard footage, I can see that he did nothing wrong. There was a gap, he went for it and about half a second later there was not a gap and as Hamilton was already alongside he was the victim of Rosbergs dodgy defensive chop. That is the way I see it.

Rosberg's title to lose now.

[TrapezeArtist]

Well this was always one that would bring the Haters and the Fanboys out of the woodwork. Actually quite a lot of the comment about Ham/Ros has surprised me with it's reasonableness.

What also surprised me was that I find myself agreeing with the stewards. Given the hectic nature of the first few corners of a race, I think it's generally unfair to hand out penalties for the incidents that occur. In this case, I do find Rosberg to be a slightly greater cause of the accident that Hamilton, but I would only use the word "cause" and not "blame". If Hamilton had picked left instead of right, he would have been past. If Rosberg had allowed the one car width for a car that has a significant overlap, the incident wouldn't have happened.

There's no doubt that Hamilton is an instinctive, natural hard racer, and he goes for some things that make me hold my breath, but he makes them work. Rosberg isn't from that mould but he seems to feel the need to show that he is. The results often look rather clumsy.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by steve_r

I agree it's futile, but from the Hamilton onboard footage, I can see that he did nothing wrong. There was a gap, he went for it and about half a second later there was not a gap and as Hamilton was already alongside he was the victim of Rosbergs dodgy defensive chop. That is the way I see it.

Rosberg's title to lose now.

Steve, you need to watch the sequence in slow motion from in front of the cars. far from Rosberg chopping across Hamilton, he is taking almost constant curve towards the inside of the track, and at the point when Hamilton's front wheels are about level with the rear wing on Rosber's car, the gap is clearly insufficient for Hamilton to continue to attempt a pass without having to have at least 2 wheels on the grass.

And in fairness to Rosberg, it was milliseconds later that he actually started to pull towards the left to try to avoid any possible contact with Hamilton.

From the video in front of the cars, I am pretty well confident that Rosberg only changed his steering angle once, and that was when he pulled to the left to avoid Hamilton.

[steve_r]

The problem with watching things in slow motion, is that they did not happen in slow motion. People watch thing in slow motion from numerous angles, and freeze frames etc, and then apportion blame. This is fair enough, but if you watch it in realtime from Hamitons on board, there is little he did wrong, and no time for him to get out of the way.

That's the way I see it anyway. But I am glad that no penalties were handed out. Overly robust from Rosberg, but a racing incident nevertheless.

[crmalcolm]

Listening to a podcast on the race yesterday, it was suggested that maybe the nature of the track had a contribution to the mindset of the drivers.
As has been mentioned previously, both the track and current regulations have led to 'boring races'. With this in mind, drivers probably started with the view that they need to be aggressive early or they will never get past later in the race.
If the track/regulations meant that passing was more likely later in the race, would the drivers (ROS & HAM) be more likely to hold station in the opening part of the race?